Nervous_Dog Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 In the village there are a number of young lads, (still at school) who every one calls Katoeys including themselves, accepted by the community as a whole. I think it is just a more tolerant society! SHIT WE BETTER CHANGE THAT THEN! JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 LC, Actually out in the countryside, the villages and smaller cities, I don't see many at all. Oh, they are around, but in small numbers, and not nearly as flamboyant either. The ones I do see up in Surin and elsewhere up here usually have a shop or food stall they own, and seem to be retired from the sex trade, (Ah! Here's where I made my mistake! I can see now why ER thought I assumed all Katoeys were sex workers. My mistake.) after making enough to build a home and start a business. I think maybe you mean why so many in the farang districts? They are much more visible and concentrated in the P4P areas, there to make money from customers, farangs, and being in those areas makes it seem they are so prevelent in the society. It would be interesting to see what their actual percentages are in the general population. In the west, well, the states anyways, the gay and lesbian coalitions and "political" groups claim that 10% of the population is gay or lesbian. I find these numbers inflated I think, for political purposes mostly I'd think. I don't see 10 out of every 100 Americans being gay. More like maybe 3% to 5% I believe is more accurate. I've seen a few of what I call "budding" katoeys in the villages and towns in Isaan. Young boys of an extremely effeminate nature. Some even dressing as girls already when "home" in the village. I've also seen a few students when attending my daughter's school functions, where they are quite obviously effeminate, even wearing the typical student uniforms they are noticable, and they seem to be taken as they are, not picked on, (although they always seem to be hanging around with the girls, rather then the other boys, so it's hard to tell how the other boys treat them) and are treated much the same as all the other students by the teaching staff. I suppose you don't see many around up here because they are mostly working in the farang sex industry in Bangkok and Pattaya, or the Thai sex venues around the country, which most of us never see much of unless we go out of our way to seek these places out, or go with Thai friends. (I've been to a few with Thai friends years ago.) There are a few around here, but nothing like you encounter down there in the tourist areas. There is one restaurant here in Surin I call the "Ladyboy Shop". When it first opened all the wait-staff were gay men. The place is owned by a farang (Swiss/German guy I think was told me) guy and his ladyboy mate. Excellent food and service. One of mine and the family's favorite places to eat out. Good farang and Thai foods. And a very clean and modern and well set-up place. What boggles my mind is all the stories I've heard over the years, from others, and through a couple of Ladyboys I knew and was friendly with and other Katoeys I've spoken with (they can be decent sorts if one treats them respectfully and just talks to them, even if they know you are not a customer and don't fly that way) are the straight Thai guys who do this business solely for the money. They have wives and children, girlfriends, claim to be straight, not bi-sexual, and only do it for the monies it provides them and their families. That's something I just can't get my mind around. The ones I don't like are the very aggressive ones, the impolite ones, the thieving ones who try to pick your pockets as they try to grope you as you walk by. Mostly freelancer types I've seen like this, streetwalkers. Personally from my observations and experiences here I don't think they are any more prevelent (I'm talking gays here, and including them as well as the transvestites) in the general population than in the west. They are just more concentrated in the areas we farang, some of us, hang out and socialize in. One thing I think may come into play here is that a lot of the children do seem to be taken care of by families that have no males as role models for the kids. A lot of families consist of women taking care of the children. The men are gone, either working for long periods away from the family, have deserted the family, have gone to live with their mia noi, or been killed in an accident. There seem to be many soley female family units. Single mothers with Grannie and a couple sisters or female cousins living together. Without the male role models I think a lot of the young boys may become confused in their identity in their early years, especially if they are of an effeminate nature to begin with, surrounded by nothing but women in their formative years. Hence some gender confusion, which may, as you point out, be exaggerated by the women putting on make-up and such feminine stuff in play on the cute young boys. Just my thoughts and opinions formed from my own experiences, not any theory. Cent p.s. Exactly why does the wife say she wants to paint you up like a wanton whore LC? Happily my wife doesn't want to do this to me. Probably realizes an ugly man would also make an ugly broad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Why there are so many kakoeys - simple - demand. Talk to some Thai ladies and they will tell you that many falangs like lady boys. Some Thai ladies speak enviously of the beauty some lady boys possess. Why do many falangs on this board come across as if they hate lady boys - possibly because they do not hate them. I call it human nature. People, in general, do not go around saying they hate ladyboys - same as peopple do not go around saying they do not steal. When I hear a person say they do not steal, generally I know I have it narrowed down to who is a thief and does steal. People just do not talk that way, but their subconscious does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 mostly working in the farang sex industry in Bangkok and Pattaya I see them working in shopping centers, fast food, selling stuff on the street, restaurants, offices, indeed everywhere I would see any other thai girl. I also see them trolling for customers at thai disco's as well as farang. The farang katoey scene is somewhat erratic. The strange one is soi cowboy they seem to be almost completely purged; why so other than farangs aren't interested? The sex industry does attract many katoeys and rightly so as it may be the only way for many to earn enough money for all the operations and chemicals they need to look like a woman on top of all the same reasons a normal thai girl would enter the scene. So in that sense sex work is really a means to an end rather than an aspiration. Contrast that to hetero thai guys will work in gay bars to make money, not become katoeys. I don't associate katoeys with sex workers just like I don't see the cliche of those that say half the thai girls are prostitutes or whatever. It's a generalization that happens when you don't have a broader view. I believe the percentage of katoeys working in the sex industry in bangkok is small in relation to the total number. From a demographic point of view, one oddity I have observed is many katoeys come from the north rather than isaan. As to why so many become katoeys, that's puzzled me for sure. One thing that might fuel it is all the role models out there. Younger kids can see katoeys in many age groups and have a very easy path to follow with so many examples around. Without that catalyst, many might just stay in the closet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I agree with you and it's my experience traveling around. I don't know why some have to bring down everything to P4P, maybe this is the only thai perimeter they really know. Cent made a good point when saying a lot upcountry are not "flamboyant" at all. They hold normal jobs too. In the top hotel i stayed in Ubon, one of the mangers was a katoey, I barely noticed, until she came to the net computers in the lobby and asked me a question. Absolutely dressed normally as an office woman. I did not even bat an eye, they are accepted in thailand (as many things are, as long as you don't shout it from the roof, live and let live and all that....). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaad Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've seen lots of potential katoey students for the last 3 years. It's going to be a bright future in that aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 ER, I do agree with this when you are talking about Bangkok and Pattaya. The katoeys do work in all different jobs in the "big city" of Bangkok, just as you say, they are everywhere you'd find the Thai women. Shops, restaurants, hotels, (although I haven't seen many working in the hotels really) department stores and other places. Although I haven't seen many in higher end places/jobs, such as banks. They go to Bangkok just as every other Thai does, to find work. And I agree that there are plenty who don't work the sex venues. What I am saying, bearing in mind the post title really, is that the "concentrations" of katoeys in Thailand that would make one believe they are more prevelent in the country, as opposed to in the west, the states, as that is my background I'm most familiar with, is that it is in the bars where you see them gathered in large numbers which would make one more likely to assume they are a larger percentage of the population then elsewhere. Another thing I realize is that in the states, for a gay man, the very effeminine type, it is socially still unacceptable for those that would do so to dress this way, a man in woman's clothing. (Note: except in Frisco where P127 and OH are from. But that's a whole different place!)Excepting those that are truly feminine enough to get away with it "incognito". Even if they wanted to it just isn't accepted. So the farang "katoeys" just aren't seen in public as the Thai ones are. Whereas here in Thailand it doesn't seem to be a problem for them, socially, at least from what I can see on the surface of it. Although there may be, I believe, an unseen side, the underbelly, that I have noticed a bit from some straight Thai men, in conversation and some actions, where the katoeys may still face some discrimination from certain circles at times. And although the katoeys in recent years are much more prominent and visible in the media and such, hell, they are all over the Thai TV shows, soaps, game shows, and Thai movies now, always have been in the Morlam shows I've seen, at least one, this hasn't always been so. This prominence.(I was recently watching an old Thai movie from the early 70's with the wife on TV, and there was one scene with a katoey in it, used for comedic effect.) And they are usually portrayed as a comic foil or comic relief in the shows and movies I've seen. Not in any serious role usually. (As is usual in a lot of the west, drag queens, "katoeys", not gays.) And I am not equating Thai katoeys with the western Drag Queen either here, ER. As in both genders, alternative sexual identities and proclivities, and those in between, there are varying levels of "katoey" too. Some are just that, drag queens, some are totally of the feeling that they are true women, stuck in a man's body. And some in-between levels as well. One Example: Madam What'shis/herface, the Brit drag queen that has crossed the Atlantic and now has been doing stuff on TV and movies in the states the past few years. This has become much more acceptable in the west. But usually it is accepted only as comedy. Serious portrayals of these people rarely, if ever, make money. So they aren't done. The katoey boxer movie comes to mind here as a bit of an exception, rather than the rule, but still a lot of it played as comedy. I do agree that they use the sex jobs as a means to an end, some of them, probably a lot of them, more than as just another way to make money. The operations some of them desire are expensive (in Thai terms anyway) and a quick way to make enough money to get this done is by working the sex trade until they have what they desire. Like I said, the ones I usually see up here in the Surin area have their own business and house and car/truck/motocyke, etc. Without usually having a farang partner subsidizing them. They are independent usually. Having gotten what they wanted, then returning "home", however they earned the money. You are right, they do the same as any Thai woman or man really. Some use the sex trade to get what they want, some go the less lucrative, less quick, and harder path of earning the monies they desire. I am not saying every katoey is, or was, a sex worker. But as I was pointing out, just as it is, say, in New York City, where the "katoeys" are much more visible, and being a cosmopolitan city where these people can gather with those that are like themselves, they flock there in large numbers, to extrapolate (sp?) this if you were a visitor to the states and landing in New York City and see all these men dressed as women in certain areas, into thinking it is the norm, or above average in the states as elsewhere would be wrong. I think, just my opinion, that this is what is happening here to an extent. People walking about in Surin surely wouldn't be saying to themselves, "Holy shit! Look at all these katoeys around here!" Whereas in Bangkok, being the largest city in Thailand, you see many in all walks of life and doing all different jobs. But where you do see them the most, in the largest concentrations, other than the tourist "katoey" shows, are in the bar venues and sex tourist areas. Or trawling Beach Road or Sukhumvit as freelancers. The Boys Town area of Pattaya. I still don't think they are any larger a percentage of the general population then elsewhere. Just more visible and socially accepted to a certain extent, and able to dress as they please. Just my thoughts and opinions. Taking the post title/question into account. Yours may vary. Cent p.s. Sorry. I am a long winded fucker ain't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 pattaya127 said:I agree with you and it's my experience traveling around. I don't know why some have to bring down everything to P4P, maybe this is the only thai perimeter they really know. Cent made a good point when saying a lot upcountry are not "flamboyant" at all. They hold normal jobs too. In the top hotel i stayed in Ubon, one of the mangers was a katoey, I barely noticed, until she came to the net computers in the lobby and asked me a question. Absolutely dressed normally as an office woman. I did not even bat an eye, they are accepted in thailand (as many things are, as long as you don't shout it from the roof, live and let live and all that....). P127, I found where I made my mistake in my first post that would lead one to assume I thought all katoeys were sex workers. Went back and pointed out the spot. My mistake in the writing of the post. I certainly know full well not all katoeys are sex workers. They are everywhere in all walks of life. And they are here in the provinces as well, just not as noticable due to their not being so concentrated and numerous, nor as flamboyant, as in the big city of Bangkok and Pattaya. Where they are in much higher numbers than elsewhere. You do have to agree though that they are more concentrated and noticable (especially by their actions and dress and exaggerated mannerisms) in the bar areas, where a lot of the guys come across this for the first time where it really hits you in the face, the numbers of them. Just thinking of the first time I was in Patong, Phuket, and walking in the bar district, I was astounded by their brashness and behaviour there, and by how many there seemed to be. Some were lifting their tops and flashing their man-made tits at all the tourists walking by. (No matter there were kids around and just normal tourists no there for the sex scene stuff. Some who probably just walked by not knowing what the hell the area was really about.) Boys Town in Pattaya. That Soi is crazy at night, even in the afternoon sometimes. Beach Road and the numerous katoeys walking the street. Lower Sukhumvit at night. And of course the Ladyboy bars one comes across in the bar areas themselves in Patpong, Nana, and other areas. (Where most guys reading here probably first noticed all the katoeys.) Almost every bar has its resident katoey, especially I've seen in the Pattaya beer bars. Seems to be one in every bar almost. So, as they are everywhere else it's agreed, these are the places where one sees the "most" of them, in all their sometimes outrageousness. More noticeable and numerous. Rather than the lady in the hotel in Ubon. Or even the ladyboy who owns the shop here in Surin I mentioned. Very understated and less obvious, unless one knows and has some experience. Some can pass quite easily for a woman really. Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 (Note: except in Frisco where P127 and OH are from. But that's a whole different place!) ------------------------ katoeys and gays are 2 different things in SF (in LOS too, though thais often call a gay a katoey, due to the effemininate stance). I see a lot of gays, dressed like any other man, but not too many katoeys in SF. I definitely see more katoeys, any location, in thailand than in SF. A lot more. Places where katoeys (transvestites, sex changes) congregate in SF are definitely near street prostitution corners. And such SF katoeys are definitely a lot weirder and monstruous than thai katoeys. The best looking trans I saw in SF were actually of asian descent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Maybe even 3 totally different things. There is often some confusion between transsexuals/transvestites. I'll take a stab at defining this: transvestites: those into/turned on by cross dressing but do not consider themselves the other sex. Sure you've seen these in the movies or if you live in SF. transsexuals: the perverbial woman trapped in a man's body--this is the katoeys of thailand. Can be pre or post op. It's a state of mind where they think something went wrong at birth and they somehow ended up in the wrong body type. gays: guys who are fine with their masculinity and like other guys. I too have heard the more efferfsecent ones referred to as katoeys in LOS even though they may look and dress like regular guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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