AIDS Testing-What You Won't Read About

[Guest]

I am posting an account I copied from www.penhball.com by Frequent Flyer

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I am posting this in the TSM site but it is addresses what is being raised here. I have lived in Thailand for over 10 years, basically going with girls everyday during this time. I travel almost monthly to Cambodia and every month to the Philippines. I do not want to get into the debate of whether or not to use condoms every time, as it is a personal decision. However, the personal decision is usually based on an assessment of risk and then making the personal choice as to whether the risk is acceptable or not. I can not help on the latter but can share some information on assessing the risk. I do not profess to be an expert but over the years I have had access to some data that is not printed (perhaps because it is not scary enough). My sources of information are:

- I conducted many of the ground interviews for a BBC special for Assignment, called "Dying for Love", an in depth program a few years done ago on AIDS in Thailand

- I know "Mr. Condom", Khun Mechai, personally. He is head of several Aids groups and the population control center for Thailand. He made condom use popular in Thailand.

- I know the primary Aids Doctor in Patpong, Dr. Charnvit at the Surawongse Medical Center who personally conducts about 4,000 HIV tests per year, primarily on Patpong bar girls

- Between myself and similar friends who live here, I can account for over 10,000 cases of unprotected sex in the area in the past 10 years (certainly not all mine and I am not making a case for this, ideally everyone except myself uses a condom; but I often use one anyway) - although I am primarily just an oversexed traveling businessman, I also teach statistics at university, which serves only to give me an appreciation of how misused statistics are.

So I will just give a summary of what I have learned, you can draw your own conclusions. I know some of this is hard to believe but I have no reason to make it up and will answer any questions on it. If in Bangkok, you can look up the doctor I have named. He works after 5:00 p.m. I will also give some ideas for the paranoid (like myself)

1. When we did the BBC show, I did the pre-interview with the Doctor for the King's Group of bars. We were interested in this doctor as he is well known and can not be bought off by a girl testing positive. He had been testing about 1,000 girls every three months for three years so it was a meaningful sample. He stated that a few girls from the north had tested positive over the three years he had been working in the clinic but ZERO from the group already working. I told him he was doing a disservice as no one would believe this. He said he could make up a number, but this was the truth. Of course, his information was never used on air as it was not scary or believable.

2. Khun Mechai supported this by telling me that most HIV cases are from areas where prostitution is forced (e.g. doing many army personnel a day), the North of Thailand, and where intravenous drug use is common. He confirmed that it is not very common in the bars in Bangkok where foreigners are the customers.

3. Doctor Charnvit tested 4,000 people last year. Four were positive: one was gay and three girls were from the north, not yet working. Of the thousand of bar girls working, none turned positive. There is no need for the bars to keep HIV positive girls, there is already an over supply of HIV negative girls. The doctor stated that HIV was more common in Cambodia but without similar data I can not comment.

4. Neither I nor any of my friends (who test regularly) are, or know any Caucasian, heterosexual, non drug user who has turned positive over the past 10 years.

So you figure it out as it is unlikely such information will ever be printed. There is still danger, but I can better document the dangers of crossing the street in Bangkok traffic! For the paranoid or those who might have a condom break, or be careless one drunken night, there is information that may be of use. Firstly there is a very reliable HIV saliva test kit (use it in advance or after that "slip") that gives you results in 5 minutes. Only in a dump in Cambodia (not k11) did I get a positive test, but when positive it is easy to read. It is called "OraQuick" and a package of 5 tests can be bought at the Surawongse clinic near Patpong for B2,000. It will not give a false negative but a girl may not show positive if she just contacted the virus (however chances are less then of transmission).

According to this doctor (the HIV specialist in Patpong), even if you have unprotected sex with an HIV positive girl, the chances of transmission are about 3% or less if there is no tearing (using a lubricant). One piece of information that I did not know is (the time I found the HIV positive girl in Cambodia I had already stupidly had unprotected sex with and then tested her, so I freaked) there is recourse if you are early enough. If really worried there is a "virus load" test. It cost B7,000 instead of the usually B500 test for the antibiotics but can detect the virus within days of infection. IT takes a week to process but if caught within the first month, there is a high probability of stopping the virus with a bombardment of anti-virus treatment. This is what doctors do when they have a cut while operating on HIV positive patients (which happens). Again the doctor I mentioned can fill you in on any of this if you are interested. He showed me the literature, which confirmed what he was saying. The problem is that if you wait for the HIV antibody test to show (6-12 weeks) it may be too late. So carry a kit and test if you are uncertain or have a "slip" and you can sleep better. Does anyone have any real data on HIV in Cambodia? I have tested a number of girls from Martini's and k11, all negative so I do not buy the one in three argument. I leave on saying again I am not making a case for unprotected sex, it is personal.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: k11fan ]

[Guest]

Thanks for the post k11fan. I enjoyed reading it, and I hope you and your sources are accurate (are you proud of me for saying "accurate" rather than "precise?"). I had never heard of the oral strips, or of the "early antidote."

I must mention my disagreement on one thing. I do not view condom wearing as a "personal" thing. There is involved a second (++) party, in addition to your person. That second person may be desperate or un/miseducated. Be your brothers' (sisters') keeper. Going without a condom is filthy and immoral.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by k11fan:

Firstly there is a very reliable HIV saliva test kit (use it in advance or after that "slip") that gives you results in 5 minutes. Only in a dump in Cambodia (not k11) did I get a positive test, but when positive it is easy to read. ...I have tested a number of girls from Martini's and k11, all negative so I do not buy the one in three argument.

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Thanks for this interesting info. Could you give some idea of how many cambodian girls you've tested, and where they worked? I've curious, because this is one of my main concerns with playing in Cambodia. Maybe I should get one of those oral-based kits and do some testing myself.

Have those OraQuick tests got a control indicator like the blood based ones to show that the test has been done correctly?

[Tycona]

quote:

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Have those OraQuick tests got a control indicator like the blood based ones to show that the test has been done correctly?

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There is more than AIDS to worry about... STDs and unwanted pregnancy come to mind. The test takes up to 20 minutes and does indicate if it has been done correctly.

[Guest]

I think it is incredibly arrogant to make girls you sleep with have HIV tests. Many of these girls will commit suicide if they get a positive test, and chances are excellent the positive test will be false. You are correct that there is much sensationalizing of HIV; there is also much misinformation and your doctor friend is spreading plenty of it. Please read my post, AIDS information for thinking people only for more information.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Beelzybubb ]

[PhordPhan]

quote:

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Originally posted by vtombrown:

I must mention my disagreement on one thing. I do not view condom wearing as a "personal" thing. There is involved a second (++) party, in addition to your person. That second person may be desperate or un/miseducated. Be your brothers' (sisters') keeper. Going without a condom is filthy and immoral.

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Absolutely correct!

Condom use is mandatory. You have two people to consider.

PhordPhan

[Guest]

While I don't agree Beelzybubb's other post, and will not get into it, he does raise an interesting point about the ethics of testing girls. These quick tests are not totally specific, and a 'positive' result actually has a fair chance of being false. The instructions for these tests always instruct more specific testing for confirmation on a postive result. Most working girls (and lots of guys for that matter) probably don't know this and could be devistated unneccesarily.

quote:

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Originally posted by Beelzybubb:

I think it is incredibly arrogant to make girls you sleep with have HIV tests. Many of these girls will commit suicide if they get a positive test, and chances are excellent the positive test will be false. You are correct that there is much sensationalizing of HIV; . Please read my post, AIDS information for thinking people only for more information.

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[Guest]

I apologise for the delay and misunderstandings. This is not my post, but one a friend copied for me from a post on www.penhball.com by Frequent Flyer, and at my request reposted here. I'd like to be a professional type person like Frequent Flyer, but I'm only a retired door gunner from the vietnam war, just hanging around and whoremongering.

as far as forcing girls to take the saliva hiv test, and the repercussions to them should they show positive, why not tell them it's a way to tell them how passionate they are, or how good they give bj's? 'hmmm, this test shows you need to practice your bj's, sweetheart, let me give you some tips. first, put this thing in your mouth, yes, that's good. now...' if it shows positive, tell them it shows they're a cold fish and you want to go with someone else.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: k11fan ]

[PhordPhan]

FWIW, I did a *small* amount of research on OraQuick. The manufacturer claims a 99% accuracy rate. You must swab this piece of paper around the front of the person's gums, then put it in a little bottle of "developer" fluid, close it up and wait 20 minutes. A line, or something, appears on the control half of the swab and, hopefully, nothing on the "test" side. If it does appear, the subject is positive for HIV.

I'm not sure it'd work in a bar-type environment, but who knows??

Anybody willing to try this on a bg and report back???

PhordPhan

[iuytrede]

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if caught within the first month, there is a high probability of stopping the virus with a bombardment of anti-virus treatment. This is what doctors do when they have a cut while operating on HIV positive patients (which happens).

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This is not true.

What you are talking about is called PEP = post exposition prophylaxis. PEP is started as soon as possible, within 2 hours (!) after exposition.

PEP is considered useless if started later than a couple of hours after expostion.

BTW my friend's roommate went home to Kalasin to die. She used to work in beergarden. She didn't insist on a condom, even she knew she has been HIV+ for years. She is 24, quite pretty. Are there really so few HIV+?