Foriegners not being able to buy land.........

[Old Hippie]

"...OH complained about my "attitude" and, to be fair, he has a point (although anything that stars with "I was told" is fair game for comment IHMO). My annoyance should really be directed at the authorities rather than foreignors who are confused by the absence of transparency here..."

 

Ok, and maybe I was a bit sensitive, time of the month and all... But seiously, Starting the sentence with "I was told" is acceptable here, as I stated that severel people have told he they had done this, and this was xyz Law involved...As I said, this topic/ "Law" always comes up, yet no one has a definitive answer. Elef gave the most logiacl point "Bribing" an official to allow it registered in your name, which is stupid, as thye official would be clearly breaking the law here...

 

Brings me to my next point, foreign individuals of means, or investment firms, have the money to get what they want, one way or another. Whether you are Donald trump bribing Atlantic city to condem old people's houses so you can build a parking lot or Casino, or a Wealthy farang who wants a piece of land, you will get what you want if you have the money...

 

That said, Foreign investors, especially investment groups, have the ability to pay bigger bribes, hence, the corruption would get worse/bigger/more profitable...Don't even get me started on the shills in this area who drove up prices...oddly, it isn't illeagle...in any event, I think foreign investors in the real estate market hurt the locals, doesn't matter where...but then I said that already...ok Later, I will once again try to rertire from this thread...who am I trying to kid...?

[Guest]

A few points.

 

First, on the importance of the rule of law, there is an excellent article in this weekend's International Herald Tribune (New York Times) by the Peruvian economist, Hernando de Soto, which can be found here: IHT - Hernando de Soto's Article. Using the Tsunami as an example, he makes the excellent point that government's are powerless to act to protect property rights when most people act outside the law.

 

The problem in Thailand with property rights is that most people do act outside the law; it has nothing to do with foreign investment. Moreover, when the law is contrary to market forces, evasion and corruption are all the more likely and somewhat inevitable in places such as Thailand.

 

You say:

That said, Foreign investors, especially investment groups, have the ability to pay bigger bribes, hence, the corruption would get worse/bigger/more profitable..

I have experience in this area and I can provide cites to empircal evidence to etablish that what you are saying is simply not true. Multinationals are much more likely to comply with the law than local companies.

 

The US has something called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (which has been adopted by all OECD countries), and people are arrested and imprisoned by US authorities for violating this law all the time. Indeed, the whole scandal about the airport scanners came to light because of a disclosure by GE because of this US law. (GE made the disclosure because it discovered corruption when it was doing due diligence for the acquistion of a company called InVision)

 

No one doubts that there is tremendous corruption surrounding the new airport, but the most disclosure about that corruption occurred when a US company was involved because of US anti-foreign corruption laws. That was no accident.

 

Nor is it an accident that less developed countries, such as Thailand, are ranked as more corrupt by Transparency International. Transparency International is not one single survey, but an aggregrate of many surveys, and is considered one of the best indicators of relative levels of corruption among countries. Go to their website Transparency International and compare, say, the ranking of countries such as the US and Sweden, with, say, Thailand and Indonesia. Thailand is much more corrupt than the U.S. And, in my view, the US is not clean enough. But it is still substantially cleaner than Thailand.

 

I have been here for over ten years, and during that time I worked in three companies here. I know that Thai companies are more corrupt.

 

I have written about this before. The first company I worked for was a JV with a Thai-Chinese partner; I was sent here by the US JV partner with others to help mind the books. When we found out the local JV operation was not complying with environmental and labour laws and we insisted on compliance, our local Thai partner (who was also stealing from the JV company) refused. When we forced the issue, he started keeping a second set of books based on the larger profit he claimed we would make if we did things his way and bribed our out of compliance. He thought our insistence on compliance with local law was ludicrous. He cared so little about the law that he put all of this in letters to his US JV partner - that is how callous he was about bribery and corruption.

 

This gentlemen is typical of local businessmen. He is now a MP - and I will leave it at that.

[chuckwoww]

OH, I suggest you use 'reportedly' or 'anonymous sources said' next time instead of 'I was told'.

 

It is certainly heartwarming to see how concerned foreign investors are for the welfare of the Thai people. It renews my faith in the WTO.

 

And wonderful to hear that there is no corruption, nepotism or influence peddling in the West. Third world countries can only benefit from our expertise and altruistic principles.

[Paillote]

There has been some talk about a finite pie, and foreigners coming here would take a slice of that pie and hence drive prices up. What also should be considered is that the amount of foreigners wanting to buy property in Thailand, is definitly very finite as well.

 

As you see in many countries, there are a huge amount of properties that would never been developed if it was not for the foreign buyers. Take a look around Costa del Sol in Spain for a good example. This means foreigners are not only taking slices out of the pai, they are also making the pie bigger. This is of huge benefit for the local economy and no wonder you see lots of goverment sponsored efforts to bring foreign house buyers come to countries around the Medditeranean.

 

Paillote

[FAT_AUSSIE]

elef said:

Yes put your daughter as owner of the land and lease it for 30 years is the safest way to go IMO, but use a good lawyer to make the legal papers and fixing the registration and other formalities.

 

I like what I hear. One question I should have posed to that same lawyer was of lease hold agreements and would(although I doubt it) my daughter being a minor be legally able to enter into a legal agreement such as a leasehold?

 

Another what my seem a silly question is how does the Thai government see the difference between a house and the land, fair enough I can't own the land but can I own the house thats sitting on it...you may think WTF but a 2 mio baht house you own/ control sitting on land worth 300K is different to a 2.3 mio baht property that you have no control over...

[Guest]

And wonderful to hear that there is no corruption, nepotism or influence peddling in the West. Third world countries can only benefit from our expertise and altruistic principles.

No one is suggesting that Western companies are altruistic - far from it. But in Western countries there are consequences to corruption. In the US, businessmen can and have gone to prison for violating the foreign corrupt practices act. You don't see that happening in Thailand.

 

It is obviously not black and white (that is, no one is even suggesting that Western companies are devoid of any corruption), but it is equally obvious that there are differences. Let me give you an example in the area of connected lending. At the height of the financial crisis in 1997, about 70% of all loans held by domestic Thai banks were non-performing. The level of non-performing debt in Thailand held by foreign financial institutions was only 11%. Why?

 

Answer: substantially less connected lending. The connected lending was so bad in domestic financial institutions Thailand that it triggered a financial crisis when the house of cards finally collapsed. Thailand's GDP contracted by over 10%.

 

The benefits of foreign investment and export led growth are not a matter of conjecture. A country like Indonesia, for example, is so poor that its growth can be measured by how much its people eat. Since 1970 per capita calorie intake has risen from less than 2,000 to more than 2,800 per day. One-third of the children are still malnourished, but in 1975 over one-half were.

 

These improvements did not occur because well meaning people in the West did anything to help. Foreign aid has always been negligible. Nor was it the result of benign and enlightened local governments. It was the indirect and unintended result of the actions of souless multinational corporations seeking profit.

 

And this is why Thailand's economy is growing. Since 2001 the export sector and foreign investment has become even more important to Thailand's economy. The economy certainly isn't growing because basket weavers in Roi Et somehow became more productive and started weaving twice as many baskets as before. The economy has grown because the introduction of more advanced technologies has substantially increased productivity. And for that growth to continue, Thailand must become a more attractive destination for FDI.

 

I think many on the Left don't like the global marketplace because it epitomizes what they dislike about markets in general: nobody is in charge.

[Old Hippie]

chuckwoww said:

OH, suggest you use 'reportedly' or 'sources said' next time instead of 'I was told'.

 

It is certainly heartwarming to see how concerned foreign investors are for the welfare of the Thai people. It renews my faith in the WTO.

 

And wonderful to hear that there is no corruption, nepotism or influence peddling in the West. Third world countries can only benefit from our expertise and altruistic principles.

 

Sorry, but I think the west is just as corrupt, or worse, just better at hiding it...fuck, if you can rig 2 elections and get away with it, anything is possible...

[chuckwoww]

Sorry, but I think the west is just as corrupt, or worse, just better at hiding it...fuck, if you can rig 2 elections and get away with it, anything is possible...

 

I agree. (My comments were meant for those who keep complaining about corruption in Thailand). In the west we've got it down to a fine art. The electorate don't even know they're being duped anymore.

 

Actually all this talk about foreign investment is moot. Thailand has been run by Thai/Chinese for a long time. Good thing too because the Thais would sell anything.

 

I think the present owners are doing a pretty good job of resisting global rape. I respect them for it.

[rickfarang]

Man, talk about a thread getting sidetracked!

 

Foreigners can buy land in Thailand. Foreigners buy land in Thailand every day! Its just that we can't hold title to the land

[chuckwoww]

I think many on the Left don't like the global marketplace because it epitomizes what they dislike about markets in general: nobody is in charge.

 

I can't speak for the Left because I'm actually quite conservative believe it or not. Especially when it comes to playing by the rules. I'm not a Luddite either because I enjoy modern technology.

 

I think what a lot of people object to about globalization is the unfairness. The advantages clearly lie with wealthy corporations and the people who make the rules. Poor people seem to get screwed.