chuck6660 Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 teddy said:Yes they will have to live with that, but I suppose they will find it easier to live with deserting their comrades than living with the fact that they murdered people in an immoral, illegal and unecessary war. You may not agree with the war, but to call the soldiers who are doing their duty "murderers" is irresponsible. If you try to kill me or my men...then I am going to take you out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nervous_Dog Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Chuck, maybe he's referring to the women and children that got killed executon style? I agree if you have the balls to sign up you should go for the ride, or do something like ambulance etc. however I can also see where if education opportunities are minimal someoen may take the risk to join, personally, why not move to Canada for a education? DOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Actually ND it's not that easy to 'move to Canada' anymore. Deserters have to prove to the immigration department that they are refugees in danger of persecution. Plus a lot of Canadians think they should go back to the US to make their point. http://washingtontimes.com/world/20041222-094932-2814r.htm http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=50183 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 << Just like more soldiers should have told Hitler to sodd of when he wanted to defend Germany against Poland by attacking Poland before they could do anyting they did not intent to do, more people should tell Bush to sodd off >> The Nuremberg decisions were simply unrealistic. What would have happened to a German who disobeyed Hitler's orders? What actually DID happen to those who disobeyed? Or those who told Stalin to stuff it ... or Mussolini ... or Tojo? There comes a time when it is a choice between doing something you know is wrong or getting killed yourself. What to do? Even American Private Eddie Slovick got shot by Eisenhower in 1944 because he said he had had enough and refused to return to his rifle platoon. (Ike caught so much flak over it that no other American has been shot since for refusing to obey his orders.) "Hinzman, who served as a cook in Afghanistan, was due to join a fighting unit in Iraq after being refused status as a conscientious objector." That tells you right there the guy is chicken shit. Volunteer for the Army. Volunteer to go airborne. Then you become a pacifist when you get orders to go where the shooting is? Gimme a break. I'm reminded of a guy I went through AIT (advanced individual training) with in 1968. The guy had volunteered for the Army and chosen combat arms. When it got near the end of AIT and we knew our orders would be coming for Vietnam, he suddenly had a change of heart. He told the CO that he'd become a conscientious objector. Nobody believed it. Hell, the guy had qualified as expert on the rifle range. Since the dork refused to carry a rifle, our field first sergeant made him carry a broom. He'd be out their marching with his broom or running at "port broom" with us. I said it before and I'll repeat it. If you've got a pair, you stand up, state your refusal to go and accept the consequences. You don't run away to Canada or any other country. I hope this time the feds do NOT grant any amnesty. Tough shit, fella. Stay in Canada. It's a great country. Hope he likes it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Flashermac said:[/i][/b] I said it before and I'll repeat it. If you've got a pair, you stand right up, state your refusal to go and accept the consequences. You don't run away to Canada or any other country. I hope this time the feds do NOT grant any amnesty. Tough shit, fella. Stay in Canada. It's a great country. Hope he likes it there. Not quite. I agree they should face the consequences and not run to Canada or anywhere else. But the point remains...it wasn't until they got to Iraq that they realized what they were supposed to do. Some soldiers obviously have no problem killing women & kids in cold blood but some of them do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Who says they got to Iraq? One guy was in Afganistan, the other in Texas. They deserted when they got their orders -- that's the way I read it. And anyone with half a brain realises that an order to murder ANYBODY is an illegal order. Even when 1LT Calley gave it at My Lai, not everyone in his platoon obeyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Flashermac said:Who says they got to Iraq? One guy was in Afganistan, the other in Texas. They deserted when they got their orders -- that's the way I read it. And anyone with half a brain realises that an order to murder ANYBODY is an illegal order. Even when 1LT Calley gave it at My Lai, not everyone in his platoon obeyed it. I don't know about those two in the article. I'm talking about soldiers who deserted rather than going back. All I know is what is happening now with this Haditha case. I don't think it was an isolated incident and it looks like the cover up went pretty high up the chain. They must all be aware that this shit is going on. I wouldn't blame any US soldier for feeling disgusted about it. Whether they feel strongly enough to desert is another matter. I would think it's pretty hard to refuse orders given the peer pressure, buddy system etc. and I would think being in a military jail would be hell. Obviously there do seem to be some in the US marine corps with half a brain or are you saying the Haditha massacre didn't happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Nope, it happened. And I hope the USMC throws the book at them -- especially the sergeant who was in charge. He is a disgrace to the uniform and his rank. I just remembered something a retired warrant occifer (ex-Special Forces) said to me during Desert Storm in 1992: "If this war drags on, just wait. You'll see the lines going to Canada again." He suggested the US make money by setting up toll booths and charging young men of military age to cross over into Canada. p.s. One day our local Vietnamese barber was on the firebase for haircuts when we started getting rocketed. A platoon leader turned to me and said, "If the gook runs, shoot him." There was no way in hell I was going to shoot our barber, who seemed terrified to be in the middle of a stand off attack anyway. Later, another GI admitted to me, "Lt XXX ordered me to shoot the barber if he ran, since he knew you wouldn't do it." It was a stupid order and the LT knew I was aware of it. So he found a thickie who would obey it. There are always a few around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Well I think you need to see a draft before the running really starts. Stuff like Haditha does the fight to spread democracy, or whatever it is, no good at all. And I wonder if we'd even be discussing it if someone hadn't taken a few pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 This it was amazes me ... people taking photos of illegal acts they committed! It tells you that they have either completely lost the plot or are so stupid they never should have been allowed to get their hands on a weapon in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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