chuckwoww Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 elef said:If so why the arabs from old Palestine have better rights than other native populations? What rights do Palestinians have? Water rights? Travel rights? They can't even get money sent through the banks. They aren't even a people according to some. They spend half their lives queuing at checkpoints. If they complain they get their houses bulldozed or thrown in jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evel_Penivel Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 By your reasoning, Chuck, the Germans, Japanese and Italians should still be fighting. Also the native Americans, the southern states of the Confederacy, the Lapps of northern Europe and many, many other groups who can claim to have had their lands occupied or stolen. I met a guy some months ago who said he was descendant of the Assyrians of Biblical fame. He told me he belonged to an organization that wanted to re-establish the ancient Assyrian empire. Got to think that organization is rather small, but he can make as valid an argument as the Palestinians. The only thing that would make the Palestinians happy is the destruction of the state of Israel. Either they keep on trying and live in misery for the rest of time or they give up that idea and move somewhere else; alternately, they decide to stick around but live in peace with the Israelis. The Germans, Japanese and Italians decided to live in peace with their former enemies and they are infinitely better off in all respects compared with the Palestinians. EP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elef Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sure but is the life of indians and aborigines so much better? The palestinians at least got 2 areas of their own, how many states are the americans and australians willing to give up directly to their native populations? How soon are they willing to remove the illegal settlements from those states? To make it more general - why are the boarders so holy now? Shall we return 500 years, 1000 years or more to restore the conditions then to get justice? Or shall we accept status quo instead of discussing 1948, 1967 or anything. In all discussions around Israel I just see arguments without any logic, :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Evel_Penivel said:By your reasoning, Chuck, the Germans, Japanese and Italians should still be fighting. Also the native Americans, the southern states of the Confederacy, the Lapps of northern Europe and many, many other groups who can claim to have had their lands occupied or stolen. I met a guy some months ago who said he was descendant of the Assyrians of Biblical fame. He told me he belonged to an organization that wanted to re-establish the ancient Assyrian empire. Got to think that organization is rather small, but he can make as valid an argument as the Palestinians. Either they keep on trying and live in misery for the rest of time or they give up that idea and move somewhere else; alternately, they decide to stick around but live in peace with the Israelis. The Germans, Japanese and Italians decided to live in peace with their former enemies and they are infinitely better off in all respects compared with the Palestinians. EP The comparison with Japan, Germany, Italy doesn't work. They got their countries back intact after WW2. The Lapps still live on their ancestral lands and have amicable arrangements with the governments of Norway, Sweden and Finland. I'm not sure which other dispossessed groups you are referring to. American Indians? I think their dreams died with Sitting Bull. Unfortunately what we have in Israel/Palestine is 2 groups of people with a historical claim to the same piece of land. Israelis will tell you it was all done legally through the British Mandate and the League of Nations. The Hashemites will tell you they had some kind of nebulous agreement with the British who were trying to keep the Jews out of Palestine at the time. The British realized they couldn't please both groups so they ducked out. Then came various wars all of which the Arabs lost. "The only thing that would make the Palestinians happy is the destruction of the state of Israel." Absolutely true. There may be some Palestinians who would settle for some sort of fragmented state but most of them wish Israel would just disappear. Much the way many Israelis wish the Palestinians would just disappear. It's interesting to me the way you keep saying the Palestinians should just settle down on the reservation and be good little indians. Is that what you would do in their shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 elef said: To make it more general - why are the boarders so holy now? Shall we return 500 years, 1000 years or more to restore the conditions then to get justice? Or shall we accept status quo instead of discussing 1948, 1967 or anything. In all discussions around Israel I just see arguments without any logic, :: I think most Palestinians would prefer 1948 borders but even Hamas would settle for 1967 under certain conditions. I don't think it will happen though. A viable Palestinian state is Israel's worst nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elef Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Why not 1620 or 1775? The only possible general solution IMO is status quo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 elef said:Why not 1620 or 1775? The only possible general solution IMO is status quo! I'm not sure of the significance of 1620 or 1775 or how it effects the Middle East. I guess you're just trying to show that dates are arbitrary. Unfortunately 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 are deeply engrained in people's minds in Israel/Palestine. Status quo? You'll need to tell me how that works. Freeze time somehow? Events in the Middle East are never static. You see how it goes. Tit for tat. Israel shells a beach or arrests a few terrorists. Terrorists kidnap an Israeli soldier or two. Israel sends in tanks. Terrorists fire off a few rockets. Israel bombs Beirut. Terrorists fire more rockets. Israel says they were made in Iran. It never stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elef Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 If not status quo is acceptable - which is the holy date? Before that date stealing land is acceptable - after that all land must be returned to the previous owners. After that date also all acts of terrorism to get back the land are acceptable as fighting for liberation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elef Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 chuckwoww, now you have one set of rules for the ME and one (or many) for all other situations. If you're not accepting status quo you must define one general solution for all conflics now and in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 elef said:If not status quo is acceptable - which is the holy date? Before that date stealing land is acceptable - after that all land must be returned to the previous owners. After that date also all acts of terrorism to get back the land are acceptable as fighting for liberation. You don't seem to grasp the situation elef. We can discuss it all we want but the Palestinians don't give a shit anymore. During the Gulf War they were calling on Saddam to fire Scuds loaded with chemicals. Think what that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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