Big Brother Expands Reach

[loner w/a boner]

Yep, they hate us because we have and love freedom...so take ours away.

 

Well OH, as I'm sure you know, tyrants either create a crisis or take advantage of one. Then to solve that crisis, they've got to take away some rights.

 

Car license plates were originally ONLY for tracking when a car was reported stolen. Now they can run it and find out damn near anything about the registered owner.

 

I don't think the Islamo fascists want to kill us, they want to force us into submission, destroy our free way of life, and destabilize our government. Eventually people will blame the govt. for not being able to stop it, IMO

[Old Hippie]

"...had he surrendered early, almost certainly could have avoided all those needless deaths..."

 

I tend to think they wanted him dead. They could have gotten him that morning, when he went out for breakfast, or called him. Previously, they asked him to turn his weapons in, and he did, and turned himself in as well, cooperated fully with the police, was acquitted, given his weapons back, and that was that. There was no need for what happened there, except they (the government) wanted it to hapen that way.

[khun_khon_neua]

A â??British Spy Satelliteâ?� Thatâ??s new one, even for the loonies this story has attracted over the years, that is ludicrous.

The film you are referring to is a Forward Looking Infrared (â??FLIRâ?Â) video recorded by FBI Nightstalker aircraft.

 

The FBI well and truly fucked this up, but the truth remains a few fanatics within the building deliberately set it on fire rather then just peacefully walk out and let the law process take its course.

The recent incident of alleged child abuse in another sect causing the round up of hundred of â??at riskâ? children is a good example of how things could have worked out if the Davidians had just cooperated instead of opening fire.

 

[loner w/a boner]

They could have gotten him that morning, when he went out for breakfast..Previously, they asked him to turn his weapons in, and he did, and turned himself in as well, cooperated fully with the police, was acquitted, given his weapons back,

 

I was unaware of those events. I do know that he was on a first-name basis with the local sheriff and that he was known to attend gun shows--like I did when I lived in the U. S.

 

Kinda blows "no knock" warrants out of the water, doesn't it. Just pull up and start shooting at multiple families who have no proven history of violence.

 

[Steve]

The potential agreement, as outlined in an internal report obtained by The New York Times, would represent a diplomatic breakthrough for American counterterrorism officials, who have clashed with the European Union over demands for personal data. Europe generally has more stringent laws restricting how governments and businesses can collect and transfer such information.

 

 

 

Hold firm Europe! Its too late for us, save yourselves. 'Just Say No' (Americans will understand that phrase and its context :smirk: )

[loner w/a boner]

A â??British Spy Satelliteâ?� Thatâ??s new one, even for the loonies this story has attracted over the years, that is ludicrous.

The film you are referring to is a Forward Looking Infrared (â??FLIRâ?Â) video recorded by FBI Nightstalker aircraft.

 

Perhaps so, but I'm just repeating what I personally heard Ted Koppel say on Nightline. I heard him specifically refer to it as a "British spy satellite". That's why I remembered it--I found the very thought shocking. And he was just reading what was put in front of him. I've spent a while searching the database of Nightline transcripts. Haven't found it yet, but if and when I do, I'll post it. Did find a lot of other interesting references, as seen below.

 

...the truth remains a few fanatics within the building deliberately set it on fire...

 

Believe what you want. I know what I saw and I know which "version" of recordings, court testimony, and eyewitness accounts I believe.

 

"...A former federal prosecutor was sentenced to two years probation today for withholding information that exploding tear gas canisters were used during the Branch Davidian siege...Johnston was convicted of withholding information about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas on April 19, 1993, the day the compound burned."

 

...and this...

 

"The former prosecutor who warned Attorney General Janet Reno of a possible coverup within her own department has been told he is being targeted for prosecution by Waco Special Counsel John C. Danforth.

 

Former assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Johnstonâ??s attorney, Michael Kennedy, said his client has been threatened with indictments on charges including obstruction of justice and perjury.

 

â??This law office and Mr. Johnston believe that he was unfairly targeted for his frequent criticism of the U.S. government and for blowing the whistle on the governmentâ??s efforts to mislead the public about the governmentâ??s use of pyrotechnic devices against the Branch Davidians,â? Kennedy said in a statement Thursday".

 

and more from this same article:

 

"McNultyâ??s discovery of a spent pyrotechnic tear gas canister forced the FBI last year to recant its long-standing denials that potentially incendiary devices had been fired at the compound.

 

The about-face triggered investigations by Congress and the special counsel appointment by Reno. Danforth was asked to review government actions in the standoff and to determine if there was a government coverup.

 

Johnston wrote Reno a letter on Aug. 30, 1999, stating that government lawyers had known about the potentially incendiary devices for years. Ten days later, he was pulled from the case. In 1993, Johnston also bypassed his supervisor and wrote to Reno about the FBIâ??s handling of the crime scene at the burned compound.

 

On the same page as above, I did find this reference to "FBI survelliance camera", in contradiction to what I heard Koppel say:

 

"The hearing was canceled because plaintiffs would not pay travel costs for David Oxlee, an expert from England. Oxlee worked with British firm Vector Data Systems Ltd., which examined infrared images taken by an aerial FBI surveillance camera on the final day of a 51-day standoff between federal agents and the Davidians.

 

"...will lead his group to a tragic end like David Koresh, who the government said urged his Branch Davidian followers to set their compound on fire and kill themselves in 1993, when federal authorities tried to end a 51-day siege. Survivors blame the deaths on federal agents.""

 

"...Koresh and nearly 80 followers died in an inferno that the government says was set by the Davidians but that survivors say started when authorities fired tear gas rounds into their compound."

 

I found some links regarding Koresh's pedophilia, too. One reference states that he had "wives" of 14 and 12 years old, while another young woman (now) recalls her mother taking her to a hotel at the age of 10 to be molested by Koresh.

 

Also, this regarding Koresh's death:

 

"When it was first assumed that Branch Davidian leader David Koresh had died by fire in the Waco compound, Owsley helped prove that Koresh took another way out while his followers burned.

 

"Some of the team that I work with helped us reconstruct that skull," said Owsley, "and we could determine that there was a gunshot wound to the forehead that exited out the back of the skull. And looking at how it was fragmented and the type of burning that occurred, you could tell that it was a gunshot wound that had occurred before the fire reached the body."

 

From studying the trajectory of the bullet, Owsley also concluded that Koresh had one of his lieutenants pull the trigger; and that the lieutenant then killed himself.

 

"It enabled him to reach the conclusion that David Koresh, unlike all his followers that died brutally in a fire, didn't â?? because he was shot," said Benedict. "So you had a suicide-homicide situation that precedes this awful fire.""

 

This link here reports of the official clearing of the FBI and govt. in the Branch Davidian fire:

Government Agents Cleared in Waco Probe

 

 

 

Waco Witness Recalls First Aid Training

 

"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent Gerald Petrilli testified that he and other agents expected only to get into fistfights with sect members on Feb. 28, 1993, when they planned to search the building for illegal weapons and arrest sect leader David Koresh.

 

Under cross-examination, Petrilli acknowledged that prior to the raid, some agents were taught by personnel at Fort Hood, a nearby Army post, how to administer field intravenous lines and treat shock and gunfire wounds. He said his blood type was stenciled on his neck and leg before the raid.

 

Immediate Gunfire Robert White, a former ATF agent, had testified last week that writing an agentâ??s blood type on his body was not standard procedure and was recommended by â??the military.â?Â"

 

********************************

 

Pulling up in a cattle truck with fully automatic weapons expecting nothing but "fistfights"??? Getting training from the military immediately prior to the Branch Davidian raid. Yeah, right...."mistakes were made..."

 

The recent incident of alleged child abuse in another sect causing the round up of hundred of â??at riskâ? children is a good example of how things could have worked out if the Davidians had just cooperated instead of opening fire.

 

The Branch Davidians didn't start the shooting. The BATF did the moment their feet hit the ground. They first killed a small child playing out front when the adults were in the house. I can't consider that "collateral damage". Nor is that consistent with the government's assertion that 70 agents were there to execute a search warrant for illegal weapons. Shooting at ANYONE, including federal agents, is justified if they shoot at you first without just provocation. Perhaps I've been misinformed about who fired the first shots. There's only 2 groups of people who know: one of them are nothing but ashes and there's too much condemning evidence to believe the other.

 

OH has a valid point too. Koresh had cooperated with authorities in the past. So why hit 'em with 70 agents knowing there were children there? Maybe they didn't go in there originally with the intent to massacre. It seems as if the initial engagement and several subsequent actions were meant as inflammatory, crushing their automobiles, playing Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots are Made for Walking", and those damn black box loud speakers playing their agitating noises--clearly to provoke instability in an apocalyptic messianic pedophile psycho. That this was just an oversight or miscalculation is beyond rational belief and my ability to psychologically deny something more sinister. And the fact the feds refused to let the Waco Fire Department in there to extinguish the fire. Nice touch. Again, with everything else that happened, believing that it was for their protection is beyond plausibility. Kinda like fencing everything off after it was no longer needed as a crime scene for the reason of "lead poisoning" while leaving an armed guard in the middle of it with absolutely NO protection from the lead. That's just asking for too much blind faith.

 

I don't see the real problem with believing the fire was set by the govt, as long as the theory fits the facts. After all, many priests (as noble as their profession) are child molesters, many policemen (heroes on the street) take bribes, etc...TWO kinds of people are going to be attracted to being federal law enforcement agents, one type is the hero, the other type is the "jack-booted thug", as the NRA put it.

 

And this resonated so deeply in the hearts of the American people that the patriot movement and militia movement really took off. The militia movement used to be exclusively white supremacist with a few black militants and commie groups, but it got a LOT closer to mainstream. I know, I was there. I enjoy going to gun shows, political awareness meetings, and the like. The whole time, I saw a few books about "Jewish conspiracy" and one racist slogan on t-shirts and bumper stickers, "If I had known it was gonna be this much trouble, I'd have picked my own cotton.". And the public who attended these assemblies did not flock to these. They seem to have been as put-off by them as I was. On one occasion I heard someone say something that wasn't necessarily racist, but could have been interpreted to have racial overtones. He was booed down by the whole crowd.

 

I must admit, it did make me a little nervous. The paranoia was clearly justified, but it was MASS paranoia. And where does this logically lead, militias and all? Only two possibilities: one, sending the govt a message to lighten up--and they do, or two, overt acts of open violence--attacks against legitimate law enforcement by an outraged and armed populace. The guilt-by-association of the Murray Federal Building attack took care of that. Thank goodness there were NO FBI agents in the office that day, not one. They were "given" the day off since it was the anniversary of the Branch Davidian mess. Oddly enough, the Oklahoma City FBI office wasn't the office where most of the agents came from--and NO OTHER FBI office in the nation were given the day off. What a lucky coincidence. Too bad the people in the Social Security office and the kids in the day care center weren't given the same day off.

 

It just goes on and on, doesn't it? I'm sure most federal agents are decent salt-of-the-earth real-life heroes, just like most freedom-loving people like me are NOT racist, anti-government anarchists. We just believe strongly in de-centralized government and that freedom is as precious as life itself and to us, is worth killing for, and dying for. Wasn't that why our revolution was fought? Lives being micro-managed by federal fuck wits is not a matter of political philosophy or public policy--it's about freedom. The American people have been brainwashed, hypnotized, intimidated, and bullied into becoming fearful sheep deeply in denial. The enemies of freedom have won. We have nowhere else to go. America is OUR home, too, so we fight for it. And some day that might be open conflict with government forces who do NOT have the consent of the governed, but only the Nuremberg defense: "We were just following orders".