gobbledonk Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 4Corners just broadcast another doco - BBC - on the precursors to the current financial crisis, and one of the main problems identified is that the Germans pushed a common currency before a common political system. As abhorrent as many would undoubtedly feel the prospect of Germany having direct political and economic control of other countries, is the alternative more attractive ? Given that the Germans allowed Greece into the Union when they clearly cooked the books in what was described as an 'heroic' fashion (!), would centralised control fix this mess anyway ? FWIW, the BBC actually painted the villains of the piece as France and Germany, aided and abetted by Churchill. Fun-loving Greeks, Italians and Spaniards were portrayed as innocents somehow caught up in financial waters they simply werent prepared for - La Dolce Vita on an endless line of credit. Party's over, Pedro - time to pay the tab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horneytorney Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Germany will pay the tab but this will not give them more power in Europe. Let's consider that just old debts from the history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Germany will pay the tab but this will not give them more power in Europe. Let's consider that just old debts from the history! And I don't think that anybody in Germany with a sense of reality want's to run Europe from Berlin. It's a non-issue in Germany. But of course the more Germany has to pay, the more it wants to control about it. By the way, the Brits were always the obstructionists on the way for a better working Europe. They wanted the least unified Europe and wanted to stay out of it as much as possible, but always had (been given) a strong voice. This changed with the crash of Greece. Now the Brits are placed at the side table during all major meetings on economy... But this doesn't absolve Germany (and France) from the major mistakes it made. Germany (the government that is) wanted to have a unified Europe at almost all cost by ignoring all warnings about undeveloped countries like Greece and the future trouble they could cause. Also the European bureaucratic system is severely flawed. For example Europe is paying millions of EUR of farming subsidies to countries like Italy and Greece - but no European institution is responsible for controlling the payments for waste, corruption and fraud. Recently it was reported the subsidies paid to Greece for olive oil trees are so huge, that Greece should have at least three times as many trees as currently exist in the country. And who was is responsible for checking the payments? Greece... Also we know now, that even if Greece would like to do better, their bureaucratic system, the ministries with their departments e.g., is so outdated that they are not able to do so. One reason why the unification in Germany went so well is, that for a decade or so 10.000s of West-German bureaucrats were moved to East-Germany for to establish a modern bureaucratic system and the democratic rule of law (in the townhalls, universities, public radio and tv, the former East German army, e.g.). I guess, Greece is in dire need of the same. But the least what they will do is to ask Germany or France for to send their people over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldFun Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 in fact the financial union run by berlin seems in the cards already. why not? if euro zone have to bail each other out from non performing loans why shouldnt they have a say on deciding who and how much to loan to? sounds very sensible indeed - just a few decades late, but still it's the only way to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 in fact the financial union run by berlin seems in the cards already. why not? if euro zone have to bail each other out from non performing loans why shouldnt they have a say on deciding who and how much to loan to? sounds very sensible indeed - just a few decades late, but still it's the only way to go I guess there is a difference between what is happening now in regard to the billion EUR bailouts for Greece, Spain, e.g. and in regard to new power structures being established for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I'm worried about the French banks - its like the elephant in the room that no-one wants to talk about. It gets the occasional mention, then focus shifts back to the things we can see - protestors throwing molotovs etc. I guess it doesnt make good news to show the facade of a large building in Paris with a voiceover that says 'This building is on very shaky foundations indeed .....' Getting back to my OP, surely the German taxpayer has a right to ask 'What's in this for Germany other than the maintenance of a common currency ?'. The pessimist in me says they would be on a hiding-to-nothing : how many Australians would want the Oz economy to be run from Beijing, even if that is increasingly the underlying reality ? China could pull the plug tomorrow, leaving us with little more than gaping holes in the desert - Germany could do the same to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy, but we'd all pay for that. They may as well swallow their national pride and hand over control of their banking systems to someone who knows how to use a calculator .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Forgot to mention that I may have overstated the case by using the term 'Europe' instead of 'Southern Europe' - I realise that the Euro wasn't greeted with universal acceptance. Per Wikipedia: The eurozone consists of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain.[2][3] The currency is also used in a further five European countries and consequently used daily by some 332 million Europeans The Netherlands and Finland - what the hell were they thinking ? Can only assume there was spirited debate in each of those countries leading up to their entry into the Eurozone. Belgium ? Well, you know my thoughts on Belgium - its like Kiwis protesting that they are a separate country when they cant wait to move to Sydney or Melbourne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldFun Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I love kiwis and french fries. whats your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horneytorney Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 The Netherlands and Finland - what the hell were they thinking ? Can only assume there was spirited debate in each of those countries leading up to their entry into the Eurozone. Belgium ? Well, you know my thoughts on Belgium - its like Kiwis protesting that they are a separate country when they cant wait to move to Sydney or Melbourne. another one from down under who has absolutely no clue about Europe! what would you like to say? that Belgium has no own identity or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted June 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 another one from down under who has absolutely no clue about Europe! what would you like to say? that Belgium has no own identity or what? Aaah, trying to push BB into this, eh ? Just what I would have expected from you, HT ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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