Stunned into Disbelief

[pattaya127]

but I am still looking for a good answer in the thread

 

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read again. If you know a little about thai society and manners, you will know which threads. if still not convinced, time for you to give us the answer, as you seem to know. But it better makes sense and avoid farang ethno-centrism, or we''ll be right back at you

[Guest]

well..I dont know about that.

 

 

 

Riding from Sri-Racha to Jomtien Bch, I saw the bus driver throw his sandwich wrapper out the window.

 

 

 

My gf immediately saw this too and looked to see if I did, then apologized for his behavior to me.

 

 

 

I have also seen more than a few in public with their fingers so far up the nose, that you would of thought they were 49ers.

 

 

 

Nope.. Dont need to learn those things. thank you.

[pattaya127]

Iy is a sad commentary about the lack of manners, etiquette, and social graces.

 

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we are definitely on each side of the fence. Thai society is a very "coded" place, with many behaviours (manners, etiquette) according to each situation. As i said, sometimes one can be puzzled and sometimes one can get get it. In no way, this situation (1st post) can be typically reduced to thai vs farang $$. I will grant you however that there seems to be now, indeed, a certain class of thai nouveau riches who think their wealth/position abstain them to have a modicum of good manners.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

LP:

 

 

 

maybe the "G" in GTG doesnt always stand for "Good".

 

 

 

Greedy,Grating,Grumpy,Gloomy, or Guilty tend to come to one's mind.

 

 

 

troydeere

[jasmine]

This is a tough one and it happens in just about any layer of society in Thailand. Seeing uninvited personnel also disturbs some Thais. The last time I was in a funeral, (my mother?s aunt) in a small village, I saw more children than adults! Not only copious amount of food and liquor consumed, it was also taken home with the explanation that so the ones at home could sample the food.

 

 

 

Having lived in the West for most of my life, I may not qualify to comment on what happened however, in my opinion, the so-called friend probably did not know that she was perceived as taking advantage of the dinners, and probably had no idea what your thoughts were. A friend of mine (a Thai born, US educated) told me once that on his monthly budget, 20-30% of his salary was for what he called ?social taxes?. These ?social taxes? were for meals that he was expected to pay for his co-workers/friends, who could be younger, in lower-working position or whatever, for donations for someone?s weddings, funerals, sick kids/relatives, religious events and the list went on and on! He and I had lunch once with an invited subordinate who brought his wife, mother in law and 2 kids. And I asked why he paid for all those people, he said (later) that it is a face saving thing, he would just remember to avoid being in that situation again next time. My only brother (a lawyer in Thailand) avoids the social lunches/dinners all the time because having seniority, people expect him to foot the bill and he cannot afford it, resulting in being called ?cheap?.

 

 

 

Some Thais are brought up with values that are not accepted in the West. My brother and I were not allowed to accompany our parents to many functions, because ?it is not for kids.?, but our parents? thinking were not typically common in Thailand. Some friends (who live in Thailand now) said that kids show up anywhere including funerals and these Thais find the parents had no consideration and lack of good manners and etiquette.

 

 

 

On the subject of chaperones, when I was in a Thai high school, we were chaperoned. We did not date but I was aware that some girls would go to the first few dates with friends or relatives. It is still common because of the women?s reputation; well I ?d better not elaborate on this delicate subject.

 

 

 

On invitation, I have learned a long time ago when I invited Asians and Middle East Asians to dinners that it must be stated clearly whom was actually invited, for I also experienced uninvited people showing up (I also experienced that with some Americans in Louisiana, no offence intended). Of course, tact has to be used, usually my husband and I would say how many seats to be reserved (in a restaurant) or if an invitation card were used, I would specify ?You and a guest?. On paying, it does not bother me a bit to say it directly (especially in Thailand where I am perceived as being rich!) that it is expected to share the cost. I am called cheap and used to it.

 

 

 

I am wondering whether some communication can be done to make things understood. It is quite difficult dealing with different cultures and values, after living in the West for over 30 years, my husband and I both have advance degrees, are working in the same field (even in the same company), still it is surprising what my husband and I have clashes on!

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

in my opinion, the so-called friend probably did not know that she was perceived as taking advantage of the dinners, and probably had no idea what your thoughts were

 

 

 

I beg to differ. Bringing people along was not necessarily inconsiderate, but this particular person was also very rude before during & after, did not converse, did not thank him, did not make a token attempt to pay, did not bring any sort of gift, and it seems will never do anything to show a single bit of appreciation. I get the feeling this person felt they were doing him a favor by being there.

 

 

 

20-30% of his salary was for what he called ?social taxes?

 

 

 

I think this is really an important thing for people to understand about LOS. I have both read in books and observed that the person with the highest status is expected to pay at social outings. A Thai friend says this also breeds corruption in Thailand because the higher up people don't necessarily make enough extra to cover these obligations, but they must pay up or lose face so the money must be acquired in corrupt ways. By the same token, it is impolite to insist to pay when someone at the table has a higher status than yourself. All that said, farang's I think are understood if they don't know the rules, but if you do, so much the better.

 

 

 

All that being said, I have also run into Thai's (the non BG variety) who insist on splitting the bill and those that wish to pay as a treat to me. Bad apples are out there, but good ones too.

 

 

[thalenoi]

A positif note on getting fleeced:

 

My double front door can be opened in less then 30 seconds by a thief. I wanted a double metal gliding door behind the wooden one, similar to one of my neighbours. I called a doormaker in who had a look at that neighbourgs door and asked 4500 baht to make the same.

 

 

 

5 days later he arrived at my place with two workmen. They worked hard for 4 hours to install the doors and I made some comments I wanted the doors to be lockable in the floor. They went off and said they would be back in one hour. Took them two hours to return, they drilled holes in the floor and soldered locks onto the doors.

 

 

 

When all was finished I took my wallet and started counting. At 4000 baht the boss stopped me and gave me 100 baht back. I asked him if the price agreed was not 4500 and did not understand a thing from his reply. Afterwards my gf explained the doors of the neighbour had this anti-mosquito wire thing which he could not provide.

 

 

 

I don't think I have been fleeced here. If that is Thai standard, western craftsmen have something to show us.

 

 

[gene1944]

Another positive note on getting fleeced:

 

 

 

I also was surprised by a golf shop in Thaniya Plaza where I was looking for a golf club.

 

 

 

I found a used driver that I wanted for sale for 5300 baht. I offered 4300 baht and the clerk agreed. I was happy with the price and thought it was fair. He went off with my money and returned a few minutes later with 300 baht change. I told him I thought we had agreed to 4300 and he told me the boss told him to make it 4000 even as it was a club that would only appeal to a Farang due to the flex of the shaft.

 

 

 

I was shocked.

 

 

 

 

[legover]

 

 

Thanks for the comments, guys, appreciate it and nice to see some positive notes here. . these things should help us pay better attention to what?s going on? If people are going to behave like idiots better they do it sooner than later. I talked with a couple of local femmes and they agreed in spite of culturally acceptable liberty-taking, she went a mite too far here. Another fragment of human nature revealed.

 

 

 

Without dwelling too much, the woman is ½ Thai ½ Chinese and owns the building where she lives and runs her business. The business is a write-off as far as revenues and she?s supported as a mia noi by a local Thai-Chinese trader.

 

 

 

As a Thai with Chinese blood she?s made it clear many times she thinks thais, laos and khmers etc are beneath her, even scorned, useful as far as their usefulness and undeserving of respect though treating all with politeness and smiles. pure native born Thais down the social tree accept this.

 

 

 

?a few bgs I?ve asked about thai-chinese reveal a deep dislike for them. Farangs fit easily into the Thai-Chinese picture at some position, not desirable in some cases as their truer nature gradually surfaces. politeness is generally an admirable quality in people but what when it masks what?s going on in the background? things we?d be better off knowing about for self-protection?leads to a sophisticated form of deception. To live among them comfortably we need to know a bit more about their multiple personalities so we can step out of their way before getting stung.

 

 

 

liking people makes it easy to overlook their motives and fool yourself into thinking you?re exempt. in the eyes of this woman, for example, we are little more than laos with enough money to spark their interest?grist for the mill?even if they do shoot themselves in the foot. Like a lot of people, they just can?t help themselves. What was that joke about the scorpion and the turtle crossing the river?

 

 

[pattaya127]

well, if your Gf apologized and she's thai, that says something. Commonly, thais usually throw their garbage out on the street, which is why plastic bags are all over the place and a look behind many rental bldgs seems like a scavenger's nightmare. It comes from the heightened sense of what is home, and what is not home, therefore outside of their realm. Indeed, i find thais fastidious about having a well-cleant/swept home while what is public space/property is not to be minded. This is the kind of cultural traits that may puzzle farangs who will quickly forget it's not their country and think "you are not supposed to do that anywhere". Why? Because farang says so. Sure it bugs me as much as you, but it's part of the pros and cons of being in Thailand.

 

The funny thing is, farangs can be quite uncouth too, and you may find understable that thais may think like you in reverse, and generalize about all of us being like that. Which is wrong of course. the fact is, I really miss the way Tgs pick up their fork or a cup, with that little pinkie up in the air. Grace and poise like that, you won't find at home.