Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 >since we're not likely to be going to the palace any time soon a COLLOQUIAL example would be fine leaving out the ?wai?, and the ?kreng jai?, (know that one!). good starting point? < excuse me, but "kreng jai" and the "wai" are not only practised in the palace, these things are valid whereever you go in thailand. you want a linguistic example? polite: tan aharn colloquial: kin khao slang: daek all means the same: eating only, you make a fool out of yourself, if not sound completely arrogant if you use tan aharn in the slums. if you use daek in a polite or colloquial setting you gonna offend someone seriously, and will make the host lose face tremendously. in a setting with very closed friends you might use "daek", or if you want to look for trouble you tell someone that he does "daek"... add to that the numerous forms of adressing someone,like khun, thoe, mueng,etc. or the different forms of "i", like noo, phom, gu, chan, di chan, etc. you can automatically see the relationships concerning status in that setting. even as a farang you have to observe some of those rules in a thai setting in order not to lose face, or make someone lose face accidently, lose face yourself. and that is just the beginning, non-verbal communication is a lot more complicated, but has as far reaching effects as the things i have just described. you get the drift? just a very simple thing like "eating" and the correct forms of adress in different social settings take a whole book to explain, but in a real setting those things have to be understood within an instant. do you understand now why it takes more than a grasp of the language and years of exposure to start understanding an issue like "face"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 so the underlying assumption is we cannot arrive at a good understanding of face without learning to be proficient in spoken Thai... Depends on what you mean by understanding. If you mean an intellectual comprehension of the pattern, yes, we can to a great degree understand it. I think this thread demonstrates that. If you mean observing two Thais interact and fully understand the face issues, in some cases, the most obvious ones, yes, we can see what's going on. But most cases are too subtle and most of us won't even notice that the issue of face is at play. You may ask, how would I know. Well, mostly by extrapolation. I've been learning Thai in SFZ for a few years, and my teachers (including several monks) were excellent at pointing out and explaining the things that I didn't even have a clue were happening. Even with the explanation though, I feel I just have a glimpse into the complexity, rather than anything that even comes close to full understanding. > with subtle nuances that are impossible to understand without an excellent grasp of the language. These can be translated into English, surely... Is it because Thais have special words for which there is no known English meaning, or is it something else? Straycat stole my thunder, using the exact examples I was going to use, but let me expand a little. The difficulty with translating some of the Thai words is that they not only carry semantic meaning (eg. "I" is a personal pronoun referring to myself) but they also carry a social meaning. So yes, you can translate every single of the 17 Thai words for "I" with one English word: "I." What is lost is that every one of those words additionally defines the social context which frames the relationship and the conversation. Use it incorrectly and the issue of face arises. Same with "you," "thank you," and the wai, to name the most obvious ones. Examples. Talk to a Thai police officer and thank him with "khopjai," and see what happens. Or try this. Walk up to a taxi driver, preferably younger than you, and tell him this: "Thaan sabai dee rue krap?" [How are you?] and give him a nice wai. Now, I may intellectualize, but I do not feel the offensiveness of these things I just cited, that would be so offensive to the Thais. However, if someone farts in mixed company, I don't need to intellectualize, I don't need to analyze, and none of us need a long thread on Nanaplaza board to intuitively feel it's offensive. To develop that sort of feeling for Thai concept of face, yes, I believe one would have to become fluent in Thai language. > To draw a parallel, it's one thing to intellectually understand there are five tones in Thai language. It's another thing to use them correctly. Something that can be taught quite easily. Taught, perhaps, but certainly not learnt. If you meant learnt, then my hat off to you, sir, but you seem to be an exception. As I said, I've been learning Thai for a few years now. Just the other day I meant to say "excuse me." It came out as "please, fart." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 do you understand now why it takes more than a grasp of the language and years of exposure to start understanding an issue like "face"? Yes, teacher. Thank you, teacher. PS: Fly, don't forget that in English too one can be impolite by wrong choice of words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Talk to a Thai police officer and thank him with "khopjai," and see what happens. Reminds me of a funny story. I was at a Thai restaurant in Berkeley with a couple of friends and I tried speaking Thai to the waiter. He was an older guy with a "fuck you" attitude and he responded with rapid Thai and gave me a smug smile when I wouldn't respond. When he brought my beer, he held it on the table, and with an arrogant tone asked me in English, "What do you say in Thai?" I smiled and said, "Khopjai." My friends saw his reaction, but didn't understand, so I explained out loud while he was still there. PS: I wouldn't have done it if I weren't 100% sure he deserved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 >Yes, teacher. Thank you, teacher. < aren't we getting here a bit ahead of ourselves, young man? in a public setting like this we should leave it at "sir fly" for the time being. the less formal "teacher" i might permit you in proper time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 again, can you tell me an example of a farang having offended a thai gravely by just doing a language misquote? If the farang speaks fluently thai like you, probably the thai will think you meant it, and may think it's not funny at all. In a case of a farang obviously not fluent in thai, my experience is the thai laughs at the mistake (1), and understands the farang thought he knew the correct use of the word. All this face thing is therefore only important for fluent, integrated farang speakers. Rules of courteous discourse for others will be plenty, plus the ususal 3 or 4 taboos that any lousy travel book quotes in its first pages. face in Thailand is a very interesting cultural topic to investigate, but not so important when the average "hair in the soup" farang behaves courteously and good-naturedly. My 2 satangs. (1) granted the farang pronounced the word well with the right accent and syllabe lentgh, itself another safeguard for not offending your vis-a-vis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 aren't we getting here a bit ahead of ourselves, young man? in a public setting like this we should leave it at "sir fly" for the time being. the less formal "teacher" i might permit you in proper time. Kho thot (L), na? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 there are social situations where i definately do not speak thai, such as more formal higher class gatherings. my thai is by far not good enough for those situations (i really hate those situations and evade them as much as i can). and trust me, even a "kin khao" instead of "tan aharn" or "ruu" instead of "saab" will make you an outcast. unless you are incredibly rich and powerful, and don't need to give a fuck. i knew a very famous box promoter here once. he had the filthiest mouth you can imagine and a heart of gold. when he died all the papers wrote about him, he is still sadly missed by many. but christ, his use of the thai language was incredible, i have learned some of the best swearwords from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 >Kho thot (L), na? < Kho thot (L) 'NA KRAP', KHUN MORM FLY. please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straycat Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 [color:blue]All this face thing is therefore only important for fluent, integrated farang speakers. Rules of courteous discourse for others will be plenty, plus the ususal 3 or 4 taboos that any lousy travel book quotes in its first pages. face in Thailand is a very interesting cultural topic to investigate, but not so important when one behaves courteously and good-naturedly.color=blue> To a large extent I think so too -- but I also do think that many good-hearted farangs frequently are beeing misjudged by Thais due to differences in non-verbal communication. When you think about it, non-verbal communication is a lot more complicated than just 'patting someone on the head', 'wearing shorts' or 'stepping over someone'. Non-verbal communication is also ingrained in us from the very beginning. We're bound to display features from our own culture -- sooner or later -- even if we try hard to assimilate in a new social and cultural setting. I had to look it up a little on the web and I found that non-verbal communication is discussed (roughly) using the following categories: * body movement * space * touch * facial expressions * appearence (smell, dress, etc) Anyone familiar with Thais can quickly give numerous examples where we as farangs differ in each of these categories. Then think about Thai gender and cross-gender specific non-verbal communication and manners. Add other pecularaties of Thailand where non-verbal behavioural patterns apply; especially 'kreng jai' and matters concerning religious and spiritual beliefs (including superstition)... Even the best of guide books won't cover all ground here. There is plenty of room to create misunderstandings! Straycat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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