Fluency

[gobbledonk]

I realise that most of the board members only aim for a 'working' grasp of a second language (ostensibly Thai), so Im not sure how valid this question is, but that hasnt stopped me before

 

My Mandarin teacher said her ambition in life was to produce just one student who could accomplish a level of mastery on a par with one of the English guys who had gone to study Mandarin in Beijing. Apparently, if you closed your eyes, his speech was indistinguishable from that of a Beijing local. If you have any experience of Mandarin ('Beijing dialect'), you will have some concept of just what a compliment that is.

 

To the majority of us, this level of fluency is superfluous, but I can imagine that it is highly valued in some situations in Asia. I also imagine that some of the perfectionists on the board have worked hard to master the nuances of every tone and gentle inflection in the Thai language, and may be well on the way to a similar peak. Personally, I doubt that I could ever lose my broad Aussie accent, but I am a lazy bugger

 

Thoughts ?

[samak]

in my opinion, fluency and speaking like a native (without accent) are two different things. sometimes i can hear farangs speaking thai quite fluently but with a heavy accent. on the other hand i know some thais who made their studies in the usa. their english is very close to native (hardly any accent) but not fluent at all.

having close to no accent is probably more a question of talent, fluency a matter of practice.

[gobbledonk]

interesting - I am obviously still mastering ENGLISH

 

The more I think about this, the more I am inclined to work solely on vocab and body language. As much as I admire our friend in Beijing, its enough for me to be understood by those around me.

[BelgianBoy]

Says artiew:

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I realise that most of the board members only aim for a 'working' grasp of a second language (ostensibly Thai), so Im not sure how valid this question is, but that hasnt stopped me before

 

Thoughts ?

 

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Artiew,

 

Thoughts ? Yes, sure !

 

I speak, read and write 5, now learning Thai as a sixth language.............

 

Cheers !

[markle]

I agree with samak although I think that an more polished accent can come with more practice and improved fluency.

 

I think the way you learnt the language is critical. For example I'd say that I speak Thai about as well as Andrew Biggs but I have strengths in areas that he doesn't and vice versa. I learnt my Thai in a non-formal, family environment so I would kick him in the casual banter stakes but his strengh in serious discussion on complicated topics reflects his more formal academic background in Thai.

Age is a big factor I believe, especially for accent. The reason Jonas speaks Thai so much like a native is because he started in his early teens. In fact I believe his Isaan is even better.

 

[Guest]

I agree with Samak that fluency and accent are separate things. I know several farangs that speak evcellent Thai, but you always know they are farangs.

 

Also there is another factor here in Thailand. It is the status, culture level of the speaker. Different words, grammar, etc. for different "classes". Open your mouth here and they will know where and how you learned your language skills (or in my case.. non-skills). I have only met one person here whose language skill were so good that he had to "lower" his grammar levels to be understood in the bars. Now the fact that he learned Thai 25 years ago from a teacher of the Royal Family may have made the difference.

[gobbledonk]

BB,

 

You are fortunate : Europeans learn several languages almost from the cradle, and are often exposed to native speakers of each language on a daily basis. I'm still trying to get over the fact that many Scandinavians seem to have picked up an American accent from the age of 5

 

Good luck with your Thai experience.

[gobbledonk]

LaoHuLi said :

 

Also there is another factor here in Thailand. It is the status, culture level of the speaker. Different words, grammar, etc. for different "classes".

 

Yes, and this is something which occurred to me when my Mandarin teacher spoke so highly of the English guy : he had not only mastered Chinese, a feat in itself, but his speech mimiced that of an educated person from Beijing (which, to be fair, he was ..). I wonder if she would have been so impressed if he had spoken with a regional accent.

 

We arent immune to it in the west - the Germans have Hamburg, we have the British Royal Family etc : neither represents the way that the majority of us speak in day-to-day life, but that doesnt stop parents spending a lot of money to ensure that their children are 'well-spoken'. Unless you are from the Deep South of the US, you probably find it hard to equate the fact that someone can speak like a good ole boy and still be an educated person. Yes, I know its a stereotype that the South has fought hard to overcome, but I'm willing to bet that the average Bostonian is none too keen to have someone who sounds like Forrest Gump overseeing their medical or legal affairs. Run, Forrest, run.

 

Bargirls may not speak the Queen's English (neither do I), but I remain astounded by just how well some of them do master the language. For 'uneducated hicks' from the provinces, they outshine many of the people who have undertaken formal English classes to obtain work in tourism. Quick studies, and far from stupid, regardless of the way in which their accents may be viewed in the upper echelons of Thai society.

[Guest]

It`s funny how even a Farang who has lived in LOS for most of their life and may be quite fluent still does not sound quite like a 100 % born and bred Thai.I`ll stick my neck out here and say IMO the speech of a Farang will always be distinguishable from that of a genuine Thai no matter how long they have lived in LOS .....the way our ( farang ) voices produce sound is just slightly different.

[markle]

You've sticked your neck out. Now I'll jump on it.

 

I've heard falang with flawless Thai. I've heard foreign born Thais with atrocious Thai. Physiology has very little to do with it.

It depends on how much another language has interfered with the development of Thai language skills. Many falangs still speak English at home, etc. A good test of this is the luk-kuen the ones that have spoken English as well as Thai always sound a little off. But those that have never spoken English have flawless Thai.