jp1 Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Says Big_Kahuna: Poppycock! Pure and simple. It's always nice to see completely unbiased opinions from experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui_lo Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Sorry, perhaps wasn't clear on which parts I disagree and which parts I agree on. The main disagreement is that they cannot be complementary. They can and regularly are used in conjunction usually with Western trained practitioners. Agree ideas of double-blind studies etc are a good idea but difficult to do in many cases and many older western techniques stil haven't been properly tested in this manner. Ultimately, someone needs to think they can make money out of those sort of tests before they will run them. Have heard of secondary infections - have also heard of MRSA and VRSA as well though... Abs in flu still unnecessary unless 2nd infection there already. Doctor's choice to balance risks but most times won't be of any use. Not disagreeing with most of what you say - some of comments were just general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 >>>many older western techniques stil haven't been properly tested in this manner.<<< just thinking about the thalidomid scandal shows me that western methology is not all that foolproof either. and, as far as i know, the well known medicament of aspirin is still used based on largely empiric studies - no one yet knows how exactly it really works - what we know is that it works, and that more and more beneficial effects of that medicament are still being found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 and, as far as i know, the well known medicament of aspirin is still used based on largely empiric studies - no one yet knows how exactly it really works - what we know is that it works, and that more and more beneficial effects of that medicament are still being found. Yes and originally a Native folk cure....Willow bark tea. Before it was sysethsized it nearly caused the extinction of the Willow tree in North America as it was stripped for its bark. Certainly poo-pooed by the 'medical community' of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritTim Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Western medicine is not perfect. In fact, some 'scientific' techniques of Western medicine from the past are positively embarrassing when considered in the light of modern knowledge. Eastern medicine is not perfect. To be totally closed minded and unwilling to look objectively at what we may be able to learn from Eastern methods is IMHO as nonsensical as primitive societies initially unwilling to profit from Western medicine. It seems that the need to consider the body as a whole (a central tenet of all Eastern methods) is gaining increasing acceptance in Western medicine. As the human physiome project reaches the stage of producing concrete results, I suspect we shall learn a lot about why Eastern methods succeed in some cases where Western medicine is helpless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomc12 Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 The effects of Willow bark has been known for centuries-reputedly even Hippocrates knew about it. So it might be helpful to take a closer look at the difference between Western and Eastern medicine in the use of Willow bark. Eastern doctor: Chew this bark or brew it as a tea to relieve your muscle aches. Worked okay for many, but some people got bad stomach pains from it. No further testing was done. Western doctor: Bark works better than placebo-why? Chemical analysis showed the active ingredient to be salicin. Hoffman took salicin and changed it to aspirin to decrease the gastric irritation. Vane won a Nobel prize for finding that aspirin works by blocking prostaglandin production. Further research showed that prostaglandin produced by COX-1 enzymes protect the stomach lining, but those produced by COX-2 enzymes cause inflammatory pain. Current research being done to produce COX-2 inhibitors. As Josh pointed out, Eastern medicine has not concerned itself with double-blind testing to see if a particular form of treatment works or with factoring out placebo effects. Is there some active ingredient in this herb that helps or is the help mainly coming from believing it helps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Well presented. Only when we combine the knowlege of the East with the understanding of the West, can we find true progress for mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I cant add any scientific arguments to a discussion of Chinese v. Western medicines but I can relate my experience. A few years ago I started to have a bad back, with pain, aches and twinges in the lower back. I went to a chiropractor in LA a few times. He said it was nothing serious, just a bit of misalignment of some vertebrae. Manipulated my arms and legs a few times and of course charged me an arm and a leg for doing so. No improvement at all. My LT GF in Thailand said that her mother was an expert on Chinese medicine and she would get some special Chinese medicine for me. It turned out to be a mixture of herbs, roots, nuts, seeds, and other assorted plant stuff. The process was to boil up a handful of this mixture in water and then drink the liquid. The liquid was black, slightly gooey and tasted earthy but not unpleasant. Dose was a cupful a day. Did it for 6 months with dramatic results. No pain or twinges in the back since. A complete cure. Told a friend of mine about it and she was a bit alarmed. She is something of an expert, or at least an avid enthusiast, about homeopathic medicine and herbal treatments, remedies etc. Warned me to make sure the mixture did not contain certain herbs and roots as they cause cancer. She mentioned 3 or 4 and I checked them out on the net. Sure enough there were several reports from prestigious medical research places in the US, Australia and Germany saying that they caused cancer. Cant say whether or not my mixture contained any of them. It was about a year later that I started getting stomach cramps, severe nausea, fever and high temperatures. Was diagnosed with cancer. Had two major surgeries, with radiation and chemotherapy treatments before each surgery (to try to shrink the size of the tumors) and after (to try to kill off remaining cancer cells). Surgery, radiation, chemotherapy must be the medical nuclear strike option, and a very brutal and I guess primitive way to treat an illness. Quality of life and life expectancy take a nosedive. If yoga, acupuncture, herbal or holistic treatments or thinking happy thoughts was a realistic alternative then they must be a much better and kinder gentler way of treatment. Was the back cure the cause. Or was it a coincidence. I expect that it is impossible to say. All I would say is that I would recommend to anyone considering it to avoid dabbling in unknown Chinese medicines and stick with drugs and treatments approved by the FDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lembeh Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 *THANK YOU* thats where I have been trying to get to!!! cheers josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 A real tragic story lacaman and I hope you are doing fine today. While the causality is not clear, I am wondering why you took this medicine without asking a professional and without thinking that this kind of medicine does not have side effects and can by taken without risks. I would not take any medicine recommended only through a third party without having any personal examination by a certified practicioner, because I know that wrong medication/treatment could make it much worse. Same, same with Western medicine. For every positive treatment you will get a report of wrong treatment in East or West. Maybe to take medicine without proper prescription is a kind of positive stereotype about Eastern healing? Any drug can heal or kill and often it is a very thin line. Have you ever taken a stroll with a specialist through a local garden? There you will find many plants which could either heal or kill you - see digitalis. And nobody said that ALL Eastern methods are good. I presume that a part of it is based on folklore and maybe works only within a certain set cultural habits (for example if you look at African ways of spirtual healing). By the way a Japanese friend of mine had the theory, that Chinese medicine would not work on me like on Japanese, because my (Western) body is different. I have no idea if she is right, but I doubt it. :: And to add, to rely on Eastern medicine in my home country is more risky than for example in Japan IMHO. I do not trust the expertise of many practicioners until I find someone who is recommended to me by an expert in this field. You could compare it with Sushi cooks. In Japan the training of a Sushi cook is highly regulated and controlled. It takes SIX years to become a Sushi cook, in Germany most Sushi cooks are non Japanese who learnt how to make Sushi probabaly only in a few weeks without ever having visited Japan. :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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