JJsushi Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Good topic because it is time we punters analyze and admit our own misgivings instead or criticizing the women for theirs. Damaged? Hell yes I am! I think I was "damaged" goods way before I ever had a P4P experience. My problem is simply I have a fear/reluctance to permanent committment. I grew up in an environment where initially everyone(friends and family) was happily married then around my early teen years I watched my family and that of my friends become devastated by divorce and all of the ugliness surrounding it. One minute the fabric of model family life is there and the next it is shredded beyond repair. Maybe that is why some aspects of the Thai family structure appeal to me I live in that quagmire of I love long term relationships with women but the minute they start talking marriage I break out in cold sweats. I was in a long term relationhip when I first came to LOS and the scene for me happend by "accident" so to speak, in other words I didn't know squat about the nightlife until I literally walked into Patpong and even then I didn't know it was Patpong. The very fact that I had a girlfriend and have always had a girlfriend in the States has kept me balanced in that the P4P scene was for my vacations and not my everyday reality so to speak. That balance does not always seem to work when you are captured by the wiles of a Thai woman so then you start living these "multiple lives" across the Pacific and doing all kinds of crazy,illogical and nonsensical shit to keep it going. I think that if I had been introduced to the P4P scene first I would have been damaged because my views on women would have been from a more cash tranactional basis, very selfish and quite one-sided. Let's face it how often does a prostitute tell you she has a headache or even use the word "no"? I honestly don't think that a man can be exposed to P4P at an early age and then be able to develop meaningful sharing and caring relationships built soley on love and trust going forward. Sort of like "innocence being lost",The world is mine" and the "Devil corrupting" influences being combined. I think the older guys moreso than the young have at least had a legitimate shot at the "pure", "unentangled", "love" relationships so to speak before indulging and accepting the P4P scene. What currently complicates things for me is that I over the years have made many Thai friends and have come to enjoy Thailand as a home rather than a vacation spot. I have met many a good Thai woman both in the P4P scene and out of it but the problem for me is the same as with any farang woman, they all want a permanent committment. I unfortunately have not been able to conquer my demons to deliver it. BTW- I forgot to add that my "roving eye" has also been a problem in my committment factor both in Thai and Farang land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Says flyonzewall: my question would be: can you go to thailand for a holiday and manage not to have sex at all while being here? no gogo bars, no MP, nothing like that. and then just fly home? could you manage that? I have done it many a time. I come to LOS for the place and all it encompasses not the sex. You want great sex you go to Brazil not Thailand. Don't be so cynical Fly for many guys it is not even about the sex for some it may be simply that they like the way the women "treat" them. Maybe one of the reasons why you married your Thai wife, you loved the way she made you feel as a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Says HIGH THAIED:"Most of these girls are racking up 100's (if not 1,000's) of punters. Truth be told.....not my ideal wife material." "Most of these men are racking up 100's (if not 1000's) of prostitutes. Truth be told...not my ideal husband material." Haha! Touche Straycat, and a good point. And I myself haven't seen that "most" of these ladies rack up anywhere near these numbers of punters as HT says. Most are a lot less, even in the gogo bars a lot of the women take customers only a couple times a week, and the beer bar ladies even less, this is the average and below average looking ladies I'm talking about, not the stunners obviously. Thousands? I hardly think so for most of the workers. The very young stunners are another case, and I'd agree they can rack up high numbers quickly. The FL's even less I think, as they can work when they want and/or need to, and be a bit choosy if they want and are good looking enough. The average workers would have to be on the game a few years to come close to having 100's of customers. Hell, a lot of the good looking girls go to work in a bar and are working a very short time before they are out of work and being sponsored, and making room for the next bunch of new ones. We've all probably screwed more women then alot of them have men. :-) We're the bigger whores really! And there are other variations to all of this too I've come across and seen over the years. There are plenty of students and women with regular jobs who freelance on occasion for some extra cash infrequently. The line between a GTG and BG can be very thin here and stepped back and forth across easily. How do you know that supposed GTG you all are dating hasn't been crossing the line for years to supplement her income? You don't. And that's another point that needs to be made. You don't know. Just because you met her working at KFC or in MBK doesn't mean squat. You think she'd tell you? Haha. Right. TIT, remember? Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Says flyonzewall: >>>And I see nothing wrong with a single guy indulging in the scene using care and caution.<<< right and wrong is i believe in the sense of what you posted not really the right approach, it leads you that far, but not further, and ends up in a very shallow moralistic debate. the question is more, exactly the way how you asked : how damaging is it? Fly, Yes, I see your point,but men have been dabbling in the P4P scene for many centuries. I fail to see it as always a "damaging" thing. Many cultures even encourage the young men to experience this as a way to manhood, a rite of passage. Not everyone who pays for it on occasion becomes demented, perverted, mentally unable to commit to a so-called "normal" relationship, or falls prey to it becoming an addiction which alters their lives forever. Like a man who can drink and not become addicted there are men who can pay for it and not have it ruin their lives or need to pay for it forever after. Social drinking, social fucking for dollars. Alcoholic, P4P sex addict. It's about the degrees of involvement really. Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Fly, You said: "but there is the knowledge that when things can go wrong, i could always find cheap thrill, incredible enjoyment and a huge load of endorphines in that lifestyle." I agree that it is so damned easy for a man to get some here that truly working on a commited relationship can be very daunting. It's just too easy here to say "Hey, fuck this. I'm outta here honey!" and go find yourself a replacement. It's a boon and a bane. It's great to have that option so easily available, but it does make some get lazy or just too easily ready to chuck a relationship when the going gets tough and say, "Screw it. I'll go elsewhere." "and i would lie if i would say that at times it is not tempting. and then it takes a lot of self control." Ah, there's the rub. Maintaining self control. :-) And yeah, the temptations can be enormous here. But it can be done, no? We are not all so weak willed that we can't exert that self control IF we want to. That's the whole idea behind a loving relationship, no matter who is involved in it. It takes some willpower to commit and stick to your commitments no matter how much you are tempted. "i have then to visualise that such a slip could destroy everything i have built up over the last years." Yes, and that would be a damned shame if you truly love the woman and it could be worked out for the happiness of all concerned. It's about resisting the temptations when you are at your weakest, and working toward at least trying to do what you know is right for you and the one you are involved with. Hell, sometimes it's best to walk away and start over. But a lot of the time it just takes some work. Cent p.s. Good points, and thanks for your thoughts Fly. Sounds like you've met your demons and fought your way through, and learned a lot in life and love and lust. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Says paulc31: Hi Cent, Hi Paul, >>>> my question would be: can you go to thailand for a holiday and manage not to have sex at all while being here? no gogo bars, no MP, nothing like that. and then just fly home? could you manage that?<<<< I can answer that Question for you, answer is: YES I have been going to Thailand 2 time a year for the last 2 years :: and never steped in to any of the GO-GO bars I had no desire too, and still don't Plus now I'm see a very nice woman now.. I can't be HAPPIER :grinyes: Actually Paul Fly posed that question, not me. And as you are, I am too. Never been happier really, and with just one woman. We've been together 7 years, married for two now this past July. I do still on occasion step into a gogo bar or beer bar with friends for a beer and some sanuk, but I never butterfly. Haven't for years now. Just because someone goes into a gogo bar in the LOS doesn't mean they are out to get laid. It can and is in my mind a fun night out with the boys and then back home to the wife for some wild sex! :-) Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straycat Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Says Cent: ...We've all probably screwed more women then alot of them have men. :-) We're the bigger whores really! And there are other variations to all of this too I've come across and seen over the years.... I pretty much agree with that Cent! * * * As for my input to the general topic here: I think FlyOZW put it rather well. No need to re-phrase that. I pretty much feel the same way. The problem really isn't that you can't distinguish between P4P and a "regular" relationship (which seems to have been part of HT:s point). -- In my opinion the risk/the damage is that one may not appreciate the real relationship... Also, Thailand -- contrary to ones first impression of the country -- is not such an easy place to live in. If you don't keep yourself occupied with things you really care about, it's easy to slip back to the cycle of P4P just out of sheer boredom. I think we all know numerous examples of Farangs that are hitting the sauce a bit too hard and can be found SC/PP/NEP almost every night of the week... In fact I think the dangers of P4P isn't at all limited to Farangs only. I know several Thais also caught in the hunt for new pussy. P4P in Thailand can easily turn into a very powerful addiction; it's relatively cheap, it can be found almost everywhere and the girls do look very tasty -- all of it quite unlike the West. As is with all addictions, it's not a good thing when taken too far. EDIT: added quote on top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hi Dave, "Great thread. I am not sure I would use the word damaged." Yeah, I think it's a bit harsh myself and doesn't really fit. But the word damaged came up and was used in some other threads. Altered maybe, affected? "But I think there is no way to be involved in p4p and not have at least some changes occur." Yes, but are these changes always for the worst? Are there no positive benefits in P4P that you can see? You and anyone else? I feel there may be some positive aspects involved, as there most certainly are a lot of negative ones we all can see fairly plainly. "Just as some people can drink socialy, and some have problems with drinking. there can be those that are really affected badly." Yep. Everyone is different, an individual, and affected in different ways, and involved to different degrees. " But the bottom line for me is that I have definatly been changed by the experience. In some ways it has simplified my life." So both good and bad? "In some ways it has complicated it. I came into the p4p scene with some very negative opinions of women to begin with." Which were what exactly, if you'd care to elaborate? "What has happened for me is that I am able to be more comforable with a prostitute, because I feel at least they are being honest about who and what they are." I understand the comfortable feeling, the honesty factor can vary quite a bit from lady to lady at times though. :-) " The fact that they are not in a position to inflict emotional damage has been a great relief." This is what I feel most men find. No pressure, or very little if it is handled the right way. No broken hearts, at least from the punters side. "What I find now is that I am begining to seek more emotional content, but at a metered rate that I can control." So P4P has actually helped you heal, helped you change some of your earlier opinions of women, and given you a chance to gradually become healthier emotionally is what you are saying? " So what is starting to happen for me is that I am begining to think that I may want a longer term relationship at some point. Not there yet but it is on the radar. In the meantime bless the working girl." Good for you, and good luck. And yes, bless the working girl, and treat her right. Thanks for your thoughts Dave. Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 <<Says HIGH THAIED: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of these girls are racking up 100's (if not 1,000's) of punters. Truth be told.....not my ideal wife material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of these men are racking up 100's (if not 1000's) of prostitutes. Truth be told...not my ideal husband material.>> Will you please go wash your mouth out with soap and water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardinalblue Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 damaged is one of those words like "GTG". It will have a different meaning to everyone. While normal and abnormal might be words of the same accord, there is a little more substance and parameters to them. I think guys who basically indulge completely in the bar scene for their social stimulation and have no social interaction with women or even think about having what we term a "normal romantic relationship" with the opposite sex, I would say that is pretty abnormal behavior and could be called damaged. The cause of it is probably not from the PFP, but their failures or believed failures or complete avoidance in dealing with normal relationships. PFP is an escape venue but not what causes their abnormality. One needs to look at the individual and not the PFP scene for root causes....... I think sex is secondary as to why guys find solace in the PFP. I think it is more about the need for control, need for positive attention and not to be evaluated from the opposite sex. More likely, running away from something in their past. Probably could be classified as an addiction and an obsessive compulsive behavior if PFP is all what exists in their lives. Really dnagerous territory from the standpoint of developing normal relationships. Damaged? I would say yes. What about the person who has a normal relationship or dating patterns with women outside the scene and uses the PFP scene on a moderate level. Damaged? I think one who would have to look at frequency and why and when they use the scene. I think damaged if it weakens their normal dating/relationships. There seems be many many guys out there who function in both worlds in a very normal and moderate way. If damaged, I think one would have to show a cause-effect relationship.. Cardinalblue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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