Pay girl outta the bar (pay out discussion)

[cardinalblue]

TTM,

 

sorry to hear that your girl had to pay the exit fee. Still, as you say it was voluntary other than a track record, pressure and intimidation which to me is wrong.

 

Since there is no contract, there is absoutely nothing legally the bar can do against her; other things yes....

 

The girl has to be strong enough mentally and accept that returning to that bar won't be an option if that is the stance of her bar. It isn't like we are talking about working for microsoft or dell here....

 

Your girl or the others have plenty of other opportunities (meaning other bars) to work. Yes, she will have to make new friends...

 

To me, the bars are interchangeable for the most part. yes some bars have good management or others don't.

 

When I start to hear a bar giving some decent benefits like vacation, health/dental insurance, new year's bonus, sick days, education/training, expense account and professional development (okay maybe not the last two) then bars can distinguish themselves from each other.

 

In the meantime, these girls might be employees but barely given how they are treated and respected.

 

Question: what is the difference between meeting a girl working as a waitress like at nana hotel or any bkk restaurant and a girl working at a gogo?

 

I don't think there is an exit fee for restaurant waitresses. Hell, it is not even expected that they give two weeks notice. I know of a girl just last week gave her bank one day notice she was resigning so she could start work the following monday at a competing bank. It kind of surprised me the lack of buisness etiquette involved in the Thai mainstream....

 

Cardinalblue

[Guest]

wanna add something here as well:

the 10K fee itself is a nonissue. by itself it does not fall under human trafficking. and if bars do use undue pressure on girls in the context of that fee, than it hardly is just that 10K fee which make it an indentured situation, but the pressure which most definately is not just used only on tha fee.

[Guest]

Hi Shyguy,

 

>>>>I know of a few gogos that FORCE the girls to go with customers they dont want to be with. So that protection is at best an illusion.<<<<

 

So do I, in this context........I know head mamasan of the rainbow bars in Nana. Several times she has shown her 'flashlight' over the girls dancing, and asked me to pick one, with her light usually ending up on one she thinks I might like. I've always declined, for obvious reasons, but I can only think, God help the girl who refused. It would have been a huge loss of face to mamasan to flex her muscles like that, and then been shunned by her own employee.

 

I think that is horrible for mamasan to do. But on the flip side, the girls do have the option of not working there. I'm sure I'm not the only one mamasan has done this for, to be sure. It is a condition of their employment, and they all know it, and have a free choice to put up with it, or not. It is far from indentured. Any can walk at any time, for any reason. On the same token, there is a little dek serve who has been their for many years, and no amount of money will buy her out of there, which mamasan supports totally.

 

In mamasan's mind, girls who agree to go with customer are prostitutes, and screw strangers for a living. That is what they do for a living, and are expected to do so while working for her. Those who do not agree, she will defend greatly. I've talked to her about this on several occations away from the bar, and know how she thinks. I have had a phseudo (sp?) relationship with one of her cashier's now for 5 years. Mamasan will actually work as cashier for a while, so girl can sit with me, because she knows we adore each other, but I cannot pull her. Girl is too crucial to the operation. She gave me a green light to see her away from the bar, without a barfine, and no repurcussion to the girl if she finds out, and will let her go freely if we wanted to make a different life together, although she would be greatly saddened to see her go. An exit fee, or any other fee, was never part of the picture. Her cashier was free to walk, if she wanted to. And she would have taken her her back in 2 seconds, if that condition presented itself, later. She made that very clear. It never came to fuition, but gives some insight into the real situation there.

 

In the end, it's all grey. Every situation is very different. There are no rules. It's all arbitrary, left up to those in charge, and how they feel at any particular time. I could pick any two girls from any of her operations, stand them both up before her, and the rules for each would very likely be completely different. That is just a fact, and just the way it is.

 

HT

[Guest]

>>>Since there is no contract, there is absoutely nothing legally the bar can do against her; other things yes....<<<

 

 

in case of a gogo or beer bar, very little "other things" possible.

 

this is not cambodia, and the legalities as well as powerstructures in the more violent underground of thailand are a bit different.

 

most of the gogo barowners, also the thai owners, are not tightly connected to the upcountry agent network to get staff (not like massage parlours or other similar establishments). some higher level urban mafia is definately involved in the thai owned gogo bars, but they are not drawing their main income from those bars.

policedistrict level mafia, which comprises most of the thai owned gogobars (not though huge chains such as kings group, where i do admit that i do not have much idea about the higher level ownership situation) is not going to fuck around too much with some girl, and has no way to implement retribution in the girl's home village.

 

you have to understand the mafia powerlevels here, which are tightly connected to the clansystem (and in the city to the separate policedistricts).

a village, as poor as it might be, is a closed entity to outsiders. one may be a powerful mafia lord in some other district, but that mafia lord will be nothing in a village he does not have under his sphere of influence, or where he is not allied with a local godfather. every clan, and especially poor ones, do have several naklaeng, who are used to sort out trouble with the gun. these people are fierce, and not to be slighted.

those gunmen will have their prime loyality to their clan, and possibly other loyalities to local godfathers, and so up the chain. a vast network of loyalities and obligations.

every thai in the underground is aware of that system, especially that upcountry gunmen can unnoticed slip into bangkok, do a kill, and disappear if some serious wrong is done on a clanmember.

and rarely he will be caught. often, even if his name is known even the police will be more than reluctant to follow him into his homevillage. serious trouble might result in such an action, as local village police is also involved into that strange powerbalance. the long negotiations necessary are generally not worth the effort, if someone has been killed who had it coming.

 

the bangkok underground is mainly connected to the policedistricts and, if in existence, to local urban godfathers as well. in that particular district these people are the law, and often, in local cases which do not make national headlines the police has to adhere to that law as well. outside their clearly marked (and occasionally fought over district borders) those gangsters are nothing.

there are certain godfathers who operate in several districts, but they do have to do that in alliance and by permission of local godfathers or police.

 

differnt though are the places of prostitution which are integral part of a long existing agent network. there local mafia has strong ties to those businessnes, and that way certain amount of indenture is clearly possible, and often practised.

 

again different are the locations which do use hilltribe girls without thai ID, or foreign girls. these girls do not have any clan protection network, and are more often than not in indenture.

 

anyhow, from the business aspect gogo bars are not that high up the foodchain in the protitution world. they are in a strange limbo within the vast network of prostitution and other underground business activities here in thailand. they can only do that much and not much more. owners have to walk a very careful line not to be hammered by far more powerful vested interests, and far more brutal retributions of other, equal or more hardcore players.

it simply is not worth the potential trouble to abuse a girl beyond certain limits. foreign barowners or managers can even do less. many are not aware of those very complicated, partly countrywide networks in existence here, but if they step too much out of line, there will be retribution. police, which is aware of most of what is going on here will in such a case not do too much to arrest the culprit.

 

anyhow, i hope i was at least halfclear about some background here, which i have also only limited knowledge about.

basically, every thai is bound in some way into a vast network of vested interests, from way down below up to high up. people are aware of those unspoken rules, and people are aware (and in case of foreigners involved in the business side should be aware) of the retributions if certain lines are overstepped.

[Guest]

very well laid out for those who wish to learn about the 'real' power structure here in LOS and similarly in most Asia nations.

 

That is why that without strong 'family' connections, farangs are at a great disadvantage here IMO. Especially those that do not invest the time to learn about these oft hidden but knowable power bases.

 

It is definately a balancing act here, and the nightlife arena puts the wire very high and very loose.

[cardinalblue]

OH,

 

When I was active in my GoGo days (until very recently), the girls would contact me during their days off or after working hours (like 2:05am).

 

All it takes is a little kindness and interest shown towards the girl and she always befriended me over the bar. I have never met a girl (other than the hard core ones which i avoided) who favored the bar/gave preference to the bar over me. Much more apt to get screwed by some restaurant employee/management trying to add extra costs than selected BGs...

 

I have never seen or witness a love loss between the bar and the girl. It always gave and still does insight on how these girls felt/feel about bar management. Absolutely no loyalty what so ever. Employee loyalty is earned no matter what the buiness or situation is.....

 

Cardinalblue

[MaiLuk]

Well I just go into a bar and they bring me a beer. Life is simple for dumb farang.

 

Very nice post. Has a thai ever written a book on those connections? Would be a great read.

[Guest]

Hi Fly,

 

>>>>>anyhow, from the business aspect gogo bars are not that high up the foodchain in the protitution world. they are in a strange limbo within the vast network of prostitution and other underground business activities here in thailand. they can only do that much and not much more.<<<<

 

That was my point. Gogo's are *not* that high up the overall Thai prostitution food chain. And as such, have limited ties to organized networks present there. Which does give the girls almost complete anonymity, from what I can see. The scouts combing the issan villages are mostly after girls for the Thai market, which represents maybe 90% of the whole. I don't know much about the Thai market, but does seem to be much more organized, with a vested mafia influence present. Almost all girl's involved in the farang sector, seem to have been arrived there from their own volition, though either other girls in their respective villages, or simply traveling to the 'big city', on their own.

 

What you think? I could be very wrong. I'm just basing this on my own observations.

 

HT

[Guest]

>>>What you think? I could be very wrong. I'm just basing this on my own observations. <<<

 

 

the thai market has also very varied sectors.

you do have at the bottom (in terms of mafia connections) the neighborhood karaokes and pubs. often they are so tiny that even the local gangsters don't bother with them. often they don't even have the money to pay salaries to girls. instead of that girls from the neighborhood just come there, sing karaoke for free, sit with customers, and once a while leave with some bloke.

 

and of course you got highly sophisticated networks often reaching into neighboring countries, into warlord areas (i have seen some thai hookers in some very luxurious places of amusement in warlordland of upper burma . ).

yunnanese girls brought into thailand, working in warzone and drugbaron land brothels, huge cities which do not exist on any official map, and some even end up in japan, US, everywhere.

no idea how those networks are actually organised - they are to an outsider rather impregnable, and so far i have never met anyone directly involved in that business i have even dared to ask. those people are very very scary.

 

but give it time, who knows, maybe in a few years time i can make a post about that as well. ::

[Guest]

>>>Very nice post. Has a thai ever written a book on those connections? Would be a great read. <<<

 

honestly, i don't really know.

i am sure of that some anthropological studies do touch those subjects. but they are generally written in a style not very favourable to comfortable reading. ::

 

and, one has to be careful not to spread too much indepth information. that is not very healthy.