bang na

[the_numbers]

Amen

 

Can we put this beast to rest... fly and thai3 have different interpretations of their experiences. Furthermore, they have distinctly different relationships to how they see nightlife.

 

1) influenced by what he sees working picking up bodies and mopping up

 

2) a man having girls sing to him and drinking beer at nightspots

 

Best,

 

the_numbers

[jitagawn]

Ah better laughter is the anecdote

[Central Scrutinizer]

Fly,

 

"i actually made a few paragraphs on the eye which i deleted before posting. lotsa fights start that way. usual explanation at the police station for slashing some bloke up: "mong na" (he looked me in the face)..."

 

Years ago something about this was told/explained to me and I was warned about this "direct eye contact/look in the face" thing. From what I was told it was considered in earlier times to be insulting and a direct challenge to look another man in the eye, especially if you were just a stranger,i.e. not family or close friend. I was warned not to look older Thai men directly in the eyes as they were still involved in the older ways. It seems this is something that still goes on here (as it does in the west as well sometimes/some places). It is seen as threatening, insulting, or maybe just disrespectful and challenging to some men. (I'd think this is a problem more with the "tough guys" (wannabes and otherwise) than the general male population as a whole now-a-days.)

 

I'd be interested in hearing what you've heard on this subject and what your own experiences are in this area. What have you seen yourself.

 

This a a male taboo in a lot of cultures especially those with strict caste systems. Even the English "masters" and American slave holders would beat a male slave severely just for doing this eye contact/looking in the face thing. It was seen as threatening and disrespectful. I have read a lot on these subjects and it seems it was also a very Asian cultural taboo. (Japan for instance where a Samurai warrior would actually cut a peasants head off just for daring to look at him in a (seemingly to the Samurai) insolent or disrespectful way. Any info on this in the Thai culture you've read about or heard about or seen?

 

Cent

[Guest]

a scene in a policestation, a year or so ago:

 

one guy, cut up niceley with a bottle, mainly just a few superficial wounds. three other blokes in handcuffs.

the cops ask what the fuck was happening. one of the three kids, after a lot of worming around, mumbles: "mong na..." (looked me in the face).

 

from my experience it still is very strongly seen as a challenge to look a stranger in the face. if someone looks you in the face, without smiling straight at the farang, be very careful. only if you think you are up to the situation stare back, but that means make absolutely sure that you are in familiar territory if you do that.

as a farang you get away with more, most of the time (but not always!). under thais this is to 90% a fight.

generally it starts with: "mong na haa luang!" and off it goes...

 

when the missus' brothers come and visit us here, they do not leave the house after 10 p.m., usually they go with their heads lowered when some kids hang out. that way they clearly show them that they are not interested in challenging them.

 

and when i walk alone through dangerous sois (which i rarely do alone), i do have my eyes lowered as well.

 

 

>>>I have read a lot on these subjects and it seems it was also a very Asian cultural taboo. (Japan for instance where a Samurai warrior would actually cut a peasants head off just for daring to look at him in a (seemingly to the Samurai) insolent or disrespectful way. Any info on this in the Thai culture you've read about or heard about or seen?<<<

 

i have to look out for that a bit, never thought much about that angle, but i reckon that has watered down tremendously with the huge changes since 1932, like so many other customs).

the only thing i always see is the territorial factor first. the hard kids rarely, if ever, leave their close environment, often just their soi, unless in large groups. in their soi they are in a clear peergroup and hirarchal situation - outside they are nothing. within their peergroup are clear hirarchal positions according to status and age.

they know exactly about their area, who is living where, who is related to whom, who is in which puac, which puac has trouble whith whom.

the other day, for example, in samut prakan, a drunk bloke in a pick up truck chased a few kids on motorcycless down in a dark industrial soi, a soi where we have picked up many injured from fights. the kids managed to jump off their bikes, and pulled the drunk bloke out of the car (he has managed to crash it against a electricity pole after driving over one bike), and gave him a good trashing. fortunately we arrived first, otherwise the bloke would have been killed. the kids, known hard cunts, did not realise that the bloke is an elder and harder cunt from a different soi. as far as the cops are concerned, that was a simple accident. everybody knows what really happened, including the cops, but nobody will say a word. but afterwards the thing will be sorted out in a different way...

 

and so it goes up, the next ones are well known in policedistrict level, and so on. very funny, that most street level mafias are territorially limited to the policedistricts. which might say something...

 

similar in the village, with the mu bans. my missus told me a lot about childhood stories of the gunfights between the different mu bans, especially obvious in the village fairs. as you posted before, those fights are generally between kids of different mu bans.

after your post i asked the missus a bit about it again, she mentioned it is very much clanist still. she said that for example one of her brothers has trouble with somebody of a different mu ban, none of the brothers can go there anymore (tam nong mueng mai dai, gu 'ja tam pii!, or something ike that), unless the elders from both mu bans can sort it out.

 

many people do not realise that the thailand the average thai experiences is a very different thailand from what most farang experience.

but, as soon as we move into thai territory, away from our resorts, we have to learn, and adapt to some extend.

 

talk with anyone about the "land of smile" there, and one will realise that thais can be extermely ironic... ::

 

you should have seen the faces of some of my friends out there in samut prakan, when i told them about the debate here, and the jokes about having a farang customer soon.

[thai3]

 

Just tell us where it is and I'll be there!

All this is interesting but not so very different from urban UK. Go into any city centre and there are nightly fights, often stabbings and occassional shootings, caused by drinking or the drug trade.This includes more and more woman who have taken to binge drinking and violence in a big way over recent years.I dare not go into my local pub 300 yards down the road as last time a guy tried to pick a fight and it's just not the place to go unless they know you or you are with somebody who looks like they can handle themselves.In this sort of working class, or rather sub class joint the 'are you looking at me pal' challenge followed by some sort of agressive threat is commonplace in response to a real or imagined stare. Where can I get one of those taser guns? not for thailand, I'll need one soon just to go down the shops at night, that or a big dog.-peter

[thai3]

 

 

Oh no it's not :: Even I would not go strolling about the sois of klong toey as it's the one place all thais have warned me about. I see naughty nigel was stabbed and hospitalised from an incident there a few weeks back. What's there anyhow apart from a scruffy looking market?-peter

[Central Scrutinizer]

Thai3,

 

Haha! Well, Turkfist used to hang and drink there in the Toey with a few girlfriends a few years back and describes some of the crazy shit he saw going down there. There are not so nice areas everywhere in the world one should "beware" of entering, or at least "be wary" when entering or hanging in these areas. I know what you mean when you say that most places seem to be safe for a farang. We CAN get away with a lot just by being farang. But if you know where the trouble may be (such as this pub right near your own home in blighty) doesn't it reason that there are many places we as farang go into at times not knowing a fucking thing about the "clientele" and possible "dangers" of any one particular pub, music venue, show, concert, hell even certain gogo bars and such. It just pays to be vigilant and smart, but like you also, I go just about anywhere in the country without problems, BUT I do listen to my wife and family when they bring up certain info about danger, and heed their warnings, sometimes. (They can be a bit overly-cautious at times I feel.)

 

Cent

[Guest]

fly and thai3 have different interpretations of their experiences. Furthermore, they have distinctly different relationships to how they see nightlife.

Amen to that. I would only add one thing. Fly cautions strongly against the dangers of nightlife, yet he choses to live 50 meters from a slum, and argues that part of the Thai experience. I'm not critical of his choice, but I'd like to point out that Fly could live on Sukh Soi 8 and probably not have to worry about gangs running up and down the soi. Similarly, Thai3 choses to accept the risks of going to Thai music halls with a Thai girl.

 

I guess I just fail to see where's the controversy.

[Guest]

>>>>Fly cautions strongly against the dangers of nightlife, yet he choses to live 50 meters from a slum, and argues that part of the Thai experience. I'm not critical of his choice, but I'd like to point out that Fly could live on Sukh Soi 8 and probably not have to worry about gangs running up and down the soi. <<<

 

 

if i would live in sukhumvit soi 8 i would have to pay at least double for a shitty apartment than what i pay for a two storey lovely wooden house with garden here. a comparable place would be far beyond my means.

if i would have a problem here it would take barely two minutes for at least ten armed friends to arrive at my house. in soi 8 i would have to wait for the cops, who are notorious to arrive too late.

in my area burglings are almost not known due to strong community control while sukhumvit is notorious for burglings.

in my area people greet me friendly when i go out to buy cigarettes, and in sukkhumvit soi 8 some fucking touts want to get me to the next massage parlour.

difficult choice...

 

honestly, i do feel very safe with the kids hanging out in my soi at night. they know who lives here, they all know me, and they take care that no outsiders start shit here.

 

and regarding slums, it is almost impossible not to live in close proximity to slums in bangkok. approximately 30% of bangkok's population is living in slums. some of the poshest neighborhoods are next to very large slums. just look for example at soi ruam rudee, just down the road you got lumphini slum. or soi nantha/soi sri bamphen - very close is the huge suan plu slum. not to speak of the to shittiest low life guest houses in bangkok next to some of the biggest mansions around soi ngam dupli.

[Guest]

>>>>Even I would not go strolling about the sois of klong toey as it's the one place all thais have warned me about. I see naughty nigel was stabbed and hospitalised from an incident there a few weeks back. What's there anyhow apart from a scruffy looking market?<<<

 

 

he was stabbed next to the tesco lotus in klong toey district. which is far from the slums.

the scruffy looking market is a place where you get some of the best deals on smuggled goods in thailand, plus it is one of the biggest wholesale markets in bangkok.

and the slums itself are some of the biggest slum areas in asia. there may not be that much for a tourist, but if you are interested in researching certain social problems and conditions here they are very interesting (as interesting as all slums are, and i have spend time in many big asian slums from manila to bombay).

i have strolled down the sois of the slums in klong toey countless times over the years, in all hours of the day or night, and i can only tell you that they are far safer than some sois i know well in samut prakan, where i only drive through but would not dare to stroll down.