Stickman this week regarding violence .

[jitagawn]

Hi Guys...

Well istarted this thread because as a long time LOS resident .visitor or what ever I feel that like most societies the Thai culture is changing rapidly due to a variety of reasons/governmental directions(despotic rule ha ha)globalization, and a host of other issues.As usual I am a middle of the road guy and prefer to be a pragmatic sort of realist while still smelling the roses.

The sky is not falling but its not that rosy either. You can argue all you want back and forth but most Thais ARE rascist and view the outside world with an air of superiority.They just do after ...all they are Thai. :: They are also an extremely interesting culture and boy athere are some gems over here.Yet I feel their society is rather fucked.( I also feel the US is rather ugly as well)

I could tell you what some of the very top businessman ( good/honorable and highly respected people)and ROYAL insiders say and think in private at the end of the night of socializing,drinking with a long time trusted friend(me). But I will not say here on this public board out of respect and honor of face for my friends and Thailand.Their opinions are not particularly pretty but none the less they are still proud of their country and extremely proud of their CULTURE and their KING . The truth is always somewhere imbetween...

 

Gaw pheun mai dawng seriud mahk na krap

[FIGJAM]

pattaya127 said:

listen, after all, maybe it's just amatter of semantics, I just think that xenophobia is very close to hatred, and also is denoted by aggressivity and discrimination.

Hatred, aggressivity and discrimination are the likely result of xenophobia.

And yes, discussing about semantics is marginal to the issue at hand.

 

Your example of youth giving you the wrong eye in a club, sure, maybe so,

"The wrong eye"? Verbal abuse (directed to me and/or my companion) and physical threats are more like it.

 

but is it due to historical dislike of foreigners?

I would rather say due to the (relatively recent) exacerbation of the underlaying and institutionalized nationalistic and xenophonic slants of Thai society.

 

What if you are with other thais? Others should single you out as well.

I'm "protected" by the numbers, like it's the normal in Thai-on-Thai situations.

Fact is, Thais are "allowed" to be, on occasions, safely alone with their teelaks. It seems single foreigners are not.

 

It seems to me, it's akin to many other countries, where the "stranger" in the crowd is open to aggressivity, when on his own.

Of course it's akin to what happens in other countries.

But in Thailand happened in a so frequent and consistent way as to make it safe for me to say, as I do, that Thais, on the whole, don't "accept" foreigners. Especially somewhat "successful" ones.

 

And in some other countries, while the reaction of the individuals can be exactly the same, that of the society as a whole, through its laws, police force and judicial system, is quite different.

As an example, in Italy Italians attacking in a bar a Thai with an Italian girl would face, among the other charges, an additional special charge if the Thai can prove he has been targeted because of being a foreigner.

Worlds apart, pattaya127...

 

what if you have no girl with you? Shouldn't they be as aggressive. I dunno, seems like youth testosterones play a role in it.

Youth testosterones would be much more under control if it weren't excited by the message that attacking foreigners isn't a big deal, goes practically unpunished and sounds even vaguely "legit" (the evil foreigners that threaten and "hold Thailand back") and "face gaining"...

 

Even in this time of raising and widespread terrorism in the West we are daily bombarded by the message that foreigners and minorities not only aren't a threat but are in fact something that enriches our society and are as such protected and helped in any way, shape and form by the many anti-discrimination/anti-racism laws and by so called "affirmative actions" and "positive discriminations".

In Thailand the message coming from the the ruling class seems to be the other way round.

 

Thais create problems with other thais too, may not be about a chick, but it will happen.

And more often than you think.

 

I also think that if you dislike every other nationality but yours, if you despise westerners, you will also despise what they bring with them, what they sell to you. This influence of the west happens on a grand scale, in thailand, it's not just nice cars.

So, what else besides material things and other "exteriorities"?

Are you seeing them craving for, adopting and spreading into their society our ideals, values and principles?

 

I have already asked that but you just keep mentioning things like nice cars...

 

Not saying they love us for all this, but just that we have to relativize this dislike. To me, yes, it may lurk, but not so exarcebated, and it needs something to be prompted. Xenophobia needs no prompting (like having a nice chick with you in a thai club, for ex.), it's worn on the sleeve, so to speak.

 

Actually, there is a part of the population i find close to xenophobia, in the way they address you, smirk at you, attempt to make you feel small, it's the cops. But the, thais don't trust or like them either....

Please reach an agreement with yourself first and then present us a coherent view on this matter.

 

Are the whole of the Thais xenophobic?

Are only Thai politicians and bureaucrats?

Are only Thai cops?

Are only Thai politicians, bureaucrats and cops?

Are mainly Thai politicians, bureaucrats and cops and less so the rest of the population?

Are Thais xenophobic just towards Vietnamese, Burmese, Cambodians, Laotians and Japanese for "historical reasons" or are they mainly xenophobic with those ethnic groups and less so with the others?

 

How much do you think they like the Japanese?

------------------------

Plenty of prejudices, and memories of war sustaining, besides western Japan.

How long are you going to use this crappy, groundless giustification for?

 

While Japanese were in Thailand (practically without any bloodshed at all and only a symbolic resistance lasted a matter of hours) Germans were in France (after a much bigger bloodshed and a resistance lasted a couple of months and with many keeping fighting even after the surrender). Large parts of France were annexed to Germany, others occupied and others subjected to Nazists' puppet government.

I would say that the French have infinitely more reasons to be prejudiced and have certainly infinitely more "memories of war sustaining".

 

Today France and Germany are best friends within the European Union and have constituted a very strong "axe" with a community of views, values and goals trying (and so far largely succeeding) to rule the EU.

 

But since we have learned in this thread that the population and the (elected) ruling class are two completely different and opposed things with contrary views... well, tell us how much the French, in today France, still hate the Germans.

 

maybe japanese act arrogantly, I dunno, but i don't think we, farangs, do.

Seeing how you are promptly trying to justify them Thais I guess that your reply to my original question is indeed that while they like and copy "things from Japan" they in fact don't like the Japanese that much...

So it seems that your assumption that liking "things from the West" they must automatically like the Westerners is equally worthless.

 

I don't see luk-k'ns having much success in the Thai society other than in the entertainment biz.

-------------------------------------

I don't see many thais having much success in thai society... ::

 

The point is that amongst those who do, there are no luk-k'ns.

 

frequenting young hang-outs in middle sized Isaan towns and report here.

------------------------------

well, here, you knock at the wrong door. You may have not read it, but I am quite a hanger out in Issan. Never had a problem, and on the contrary, people come to me quite easily. Especially, when you come for the second night in a club. Sure, there seems to be some malcontents in the bunch, macho types with money or power maybe, but just a few guys, and they also give the snout to others thais as well. Also, by the second night, seems to be the rule, some girl will be with me. ::

Frankly, I don't think we are talking about the same circles and circumstances.

From what I gather reading this board, you have nor the age nor a sufficient knowledge of the language (and dare I say it, the culture and the people) to mix in students' condos and students' parties of 16-22yo, to mix with the motor-heads helping them tuning up their bikes (with the money they made re-selling drugs at the school) and to race with them around the town showing off "seao"ling the girls, to have the numbers of the "meae-sais", to be able to help them doing their homework, to become a "gik" or to simply understand their Lao when they are heavily intoxicated...

 

 

IME the ruling classes mirror, the world over, the societies they rule and they come from.

--------------------------------------

My experience is different. but on the thais are thais, all the same, again, i think your insight in thai society (any, actually) is quite a bird' s eyeview if you say something like that. The point is not that they come from mars, BTW. I do not think that the thais who governed the country did it with the thais welfare in mind. They want to stay in power, get rich, for most of them.

 

yes, money can corrupt people, it's a generalization, again nothing restricted to thais.

You have TOTALLY missed my point.

The fact that in Thailand we have so many discriminatory and "unfair" laws and policies is because the politicians' ideas, values and principles which originated them replicate the basic underlaying discriminatory and "unfair" character of Thai general population's ideas, values and principles.

 

The current leading party IS BASED ON and HAS PLAYED on those Thai general population's traits.

 

In the same fashion, we have a totally different situation in the West because our politicians (and thus our laws and policies) mirror total different general population's ideas, values and principles.

There are racism and discriminatory drives in the West, the parties based on and playing on that kind of shit don't seem to go as far as they do in LOS nor have they been given the task to rule and shape any western country's laws and policies.

 

Are you saying that you too agree that Thais are IN FACT xenophobic and racist (although you say "just" towards Cambodians, Vietnamese and Burmese as if that was a redeeming feauture)?

-----------------------------------

can be, some more than others, just like in our countries. Never said "just". All for admitting insularity, lack of curiosity to the world outside the tip of their nose, racist, no, not against farangs. I stop at prejudices for this one. And not all.

 

So, where is the disagreement?

In the fact that we score better than Cambodians Vietnamese and Burmese?!?

---------------------------------

not score better, the ingrained xenophobia (my definition as i read it in the dico: morbid dislike of another country) one can find against these countries has nothing to do with whatever way we are treated by thais.

As said above, reach an agreement with yourself.

 

You yourself admit to feeling welcome just as a tourist, an outsider to their culture.

-----------------------------------

well, i am a loner, i like being an outsider. does not bother me one bit. Especially when i feel welcome.

Firstly, we are not discussing whether it bothers you but rather if it's true that this is the situation there (and you agreed it is) and secondly, are you retract your words?

 

So, how do you image the situation for people who reside there, work there, are married there, have half-Thai children and are still some sort of "tourists", outsiders to their culture?

--------------------------------------------

I think they like to stay in thailand.

This childish reply doesn't address the point in the least.

 

I have yet to hear Bush or Blair (or Shroeder, de Villepin, Berlusconi, Zapatero ...) clearly and openly telling in a unified TV speech to the nation to beware of brown skinned (or Arab looking) folks and to blame on a particular breed of foreigners all the evils of the country...

---------------------------------------------------

Bush? he uses the language that fits his idiotic notions that allowed him to invade another country and wreak havoc in it, and some. I prefer the smirk from a thai, personally. Wrong example here.

On the contrary, perfect example.

You haven't been able to show me Bush (BTW what about all the rest of the western leaders I mentioned, pattaya127?) clearly and openly saying the things Toxin is saying from the beginning of his first term.

 

You just launch yourself into a political tirade against his foreign policies and don't spend a word on the way he talks to the nation about the foreigners in the US and the very ethnic groups, nations and religion responsible for the terrorism attacks the West is suffering from.

 

But no contest. I am extremely proud of where I come from, every time I travel, i know how lucky I am to come from there. Still, I can think of many people who love a country, the people they met there, even though it could be the damnedest fascistic country in the world. To me, that's people, not words uttered by leaders. Maybe, the thais are in a time where they think they are victimized by other nations. it will pass. I don't think they hang that much on thaksin's words anyway. Just the flavor of the month (figure of speech).

Leaders, especially if they are (sort of) elected, utter the words that the population wants to hear, is ready to hear or tolerates to hear.

 

And once again you come out with half admissions ("Maybe, the thais are in a time where they think they are victimized by other nations"), hopes ("it will pass") and wild guess without offering any factual basis ("I don't think they hang that much on thaksin's words anyway") without proposing any clear and coherent reading of the situation.

 

Pattaya127, do you really never have the doubt that you are just trying to refute others' views and opinions without having one of your own and arguments to back it up?

 

 

A foreigner residing there, working there, married there and with half-Japanese children won't never become a freaking Japanese citizen.

--------------------------------

so, your view is about all asians?

It's about those not open to nor willing to let foreigners integrate into their social fabric.

Are they all Asians?

 

And, following what you said earlier (all thais mirror the same frame of mind) that even the japanese/thai family of the married foreigner care that much he never becomes a citizen?

They may or may not. I try to use words like "average", "general", "on the whole" etc etc etc more than the logic of the discussion would suggest and even the grammar would allow yet all I get is the usual "black and white" responses and misunderstandigs...

 

IN GENERAL Thais share the same ideas, values and principles meaning that the average Thai is that who shares the more common and widespread of those ideas, values and principles.

 

Example, the average Westerner is of Caucasian race and is Christian.

When we, generalizing and extrapolating an average representative specimen (which is not a crime but is the stuff statistics, studies, elections etc etc etc are made of), say that Westerners are white are not negating the existence or the "westerness" of those of other races and religions but we are just defining the parameters which set the confines of our argument/point/reasoning (without, I repeat, negating/belittling the existence and/or the importance of the exceptions, which may well be much considerable in numbers and quality but still RELATIVE minority).

 

I have personally known of two cases

------------------------

that means of course all thais will do that. Sorry, but it is timer for me to say, if thais are racist, you can hold your own against them, pretty well in that department. I suspect many other countries would find a receptacle for your "better than you" stance. Seriously, the way you talk about thais, they might as well be cockroaches.

They were meant to show NOT the actions of the murderers but the REACTIONS of the "PUBLIC".

 

In your enraged attempt to depict me as a racist you have once again failed to see and comment on the big picture and to analyze the hows and whys they (the villagers and the police NOT THE MURDERERS) acted the way they did.

So now we haven't any clever alternative opinion from you on the facts mentioned but just the accusation of me being a racist for the very reason of having brought up for discussion something the Thais did themselves...

 

What makes Thailand Thailand, Zambia Zambia and France France are the damned different shades of gray.

-------------------------------------

that ain't saying much. ::

Once again and for the last time, taking as an example the racism:

 

- there are racists in Thailand, Zambia and France but there are not the same numbers of racists in each of these countries (in some of these countries there are more, in some other many less) nor they are exactly as much rabid in each of these countries (in some of these countries they are more extreme, in some other they are more moderate in their outlook and requests) nor they have the same kind of power (in some of these countries they RULE the country and produce laws and policies accordingly and in some other they are powerless and marginalized and they have a totally different set of laws and policies reflecting this marginalization)

 

Based on these different "shades of grey" I would call Thailand a discriminatory country and would call France not.

 

Try coming back as a Burmese, a Cambodian or a Laotian and let's see what Thailand and Thais "do" to you...

---------------------------------------

 

you can't have it both ways. Now you claim a farang is not ostracized like a Burmese, etc.... My point, earlier.

What are you talking about?? You wrote "A country that you see only based on status and wealth doesn't do that to people. we'd flee it".

My "claim" was that we score better than Burmese, Cambodians and Laotians because we are higher than them on the Thai status/wealth/connections social ladder. Your point was that Thai society is NOT based on status/wealth/connections otherwise it "wouldn't do that" to people!

 

You are benefiting from their status and wealth system, that's why it "does that" to you!

 

BTW, see what their own countries do to these guys as well.

Who negates it.

A moment you are accusing me of exposing the bad of the whole of the Asian countries and the moment later of doing so with just one of them... ::

 

On the other hand I could just as easily point out to you the way they treat us (laws, policies, police force, judicial system etc etc etc) and the way our countries treat these guys and gals when they are our guests so your defense has a really little value.

 

Too bad it just helps us higher status/wealth folks screw the bulk of them and keep them the despised subjects of the ruling class who, I assure you, have very little of that "enjoy the little we have" attitude...

-------------------------------------

see, i told you they were not exactly playing the same game, thais that they are.

You seem to believe that there are just two social classes in Thailand, the evil ruling class and the good "true" Thai people with the former screwing the latter.

Brace yourself for the shocking truth, pattaya127... there are MANY "social classes" in Thailand with everybody screwing the ones less powerful/wealthy/connected than themselves and being screwed at the same time by the ones above themselves...

 

Thanks, that was entertaining. But the next one won't be as much fun, can't reapeat the same arguments over and over.

I agree, especially when there is not confuting of them but just a confusing repeating of mixed old ones already challenged...

 

PS: You may not be a racist, so apologies for that, but you sound like one here.

No big deal, it's just normal in this fucked up politically correct western world where for example the "violently peaceful" anti-global crowd are let to pass themselves off as the paladins of the 3rd world and its culture and well being while they are in fact defending OUR manifacturing industry and OUR wages and the "evil" multinationals are in fact enriching large parts of the 3rd world (especially its corrupt ruling class, of course, given the nature of their societies but also the countries as a whole) and impoverishing (the poorer of) us...

[Guest]

buffalo_bill said:

 

 

on about 3 to 5 yearly visits I spend about 5 weeks in the kingdom since 1997.

 

 

- found police always very helpful to me although I speak no Thai at all .

 

 

 

 

 

We should all be glad to have so experienced experts like you letting take us part in their vast knowledge and experience.

I feel so much safer now. :up:

[pattaya127]

I also feel the US is rather ugly as well

---------------------------------------------

The point of my answer was not to say thais are not racist, since i believe we are all capable of it. Look at the state of the world and what people do to each other, or think of each other, it's telling. it was that, warts and all there are other things to thailand, and thai people, quite worthwhile. save for pussy, figjam denies it. I begged to differ. What about you?

 

USA or thailand, our situation is certainly not untenable, for witnessing idiosyncratic behavior that ruffles our sense of fairness . Whatever discrimination, prejudices may come our way, does not equate to suffering, and victimization and certainly wouldn't have us throw the baby with the water.

 

 

Really, farangs stay in thailand, warts and all, because they like to stay there. period. Horror stories, you will always have, but for most, It ain't that bad.

[Guest]

... interesting to hear about your alternatives . Please do not say "Singapore " .

Sorry, I do include "Singapore", but given your comment, I think we all need to recognize that we all have different tastes and preferences. If your goal is limited to banging the most amount of bar girls for the least amount of Baht, Bangkok may be your best choice, and you probably won?t like my list. Pretty bar girls are definitely a plus on my list, but they are not the only thing that matters.

 

I like places where you can stay out past 1 a.m., you can party without paranoia, the police don?t compel you to queue for hours to submit to the indignity of a urine test, English is spoken clearly and you are not subject to constant scams. These matters may or may not be important to you, but they are important to me and most (actually, virtually all) affluent expatriate single males I know here.

 

Nothing on my list is black and white, which some here might find hard to accept. I read this thread as an outsider (I haven?t posted in ages), and the unreasonably strident black & white views of the Bangkok-is-the-greatest-place-on-earth-regardless-crowd strike me as just plain bizarre. (Are there alot of scared barowners here?) My list therefore includes places where there is now apparently less showing than in Bangkok (on my last trip, there was none at all) even though I consider that a considerable plus. But it also includes places that are clean, the streets safe and there is some semblance of the rule of law.

 

And I am certainly not writing Bangkok off my list, I am just saying that Bangkok is getting relatively less attractive while other places are getting relatively more relaxed and attractive. This means that for every place I list, someone will be able to identify a negative; but it also means that the doing so is irrelevant. (I will lay you odds that someone here will not understand this last point. How will I prove it? The moment someone responds with a post listing a negative next to a place I list, my point will be proven.)

 

- Hong Kong. There are available girls and the bars stay open late. Certainly more expensive than Bangkok, but my goal is not limited to banging the most amount of bar girls for the least amount of money. And I don?t know of a single incident where a bar has been sealed off by police demanding bribes and forcing patrons to queue for hours to submit to a urine test.

 

- Shanghai: Clean and orderly, and available girls. China is a police state, but ironically the police in China are less obtrusive in nightlife venues than the police in Thailand. Go figure.

 

- Singapore: Why should anyone preemptively write Singapore off the list? Again, a bit of a police state, and again, the police are ironically less obtrusive in nightlife venues. The government recently announced that that bars would be allowed to stay open 24 hours. And Singapore is certainly safer than Bangkok; I cannot imagine any of the events described here happening in Singapore.

 

- Kuala Lumpur: Certainly not on the top of my list, but a variety of available girls of different nationalities. Cleaner than Bangkok and the bars stay open later ? to at least 3 a.m. on my last trip.

 

Like I said above, none of this black and white, and it is all relative. My specialty is investment, not tourism, and I would be hard pressed to give anyone directions to some obscure after-hours-hole-in-the wall in Bangkok (and I probably wouldn?t be interested anyway), but in my area you always play to your strengths. One of Bangkok?s strengths has always been that it is, or rather was, a wide open party town that is relatively safe. That is much less true today than it was three or four years ago. The rest of Asia is opening up while Bangkok ? in what appears to almost be an imitation of the Philippine model of that notorious Manila mayor ? is tightening up. And it is doing so in corrupt and dangerous ways.

 

This is why Bangkok, and Thailand generally, is becoming relatively less attractive. It is not only misguided policies in Thailand, but right-headed policies in competing markets. All of this is evident in the tourism and investment figures for the region: Thailand is marching in the wrong direction.

[Zorro]

WG

 

You didn't mention Indonesia.

 

It has a fearsome rep when it comes to late night partying.

 

It may come as a surprise to a lot of posters here but the majority view amongst most westerners that I have met is that Thailand is a sleazy sex tourist destination.

 

The only reason that Thailand is popular is that it is cheaper than most other places.

 

Beaches, good food, and girls are all available in other locations.

 

Take away the cheap factor and many tourists would disappear, pronto.

 

Thailand has put a lot of eggs into the tourism basket.

 

Tourism is notoriously fickle and things could get very nasty in the LOS if tourism really goes off the boil.

 

I can only concur with the comments of Figjam and Gadfly.

If you look a little bit at the history of Thailand you will see that most of what they are saying is quite evident given past events.

[Guest]

Take away the cheap factor and many tourists would disappear, pronto.

 

Thailand has put a lot of eggs into the tourism basket.

 

Tourism is notoriously fickle and things could get very nasty in the LOS if tourism really goes off the boil.

This is true, which is why I find it so unfortunate that the more interesting, albeit more expensive venues, have been the targets of such intense and repressive police action. I am talking about places such as Q Bar, Syn Bar, Club Mystique. These places represented a great opportunity for diversifying Thailand's nightlife, but the current practices (e.g., early closings, lock downs and urine tests) have been particularly harsh on these places. With so many eggs in the tourism basket and the tourism industry dependant on nightlife, you'd expect the authorities to impliment policies that encourage diversification in that area. But that is not happening.

 

I think I am beginning to understand why some have gone to such extremes to deny the obvious about Thailand. From the most recent AsiaBugle:

A recent publication saying violence against farangs was up in Thailand has infuriated many bar owners who think Thailand has enough negatives at the moment.

I can sympathize with the bar owners. The irrational policies and practices of the current government over the past several years are taking their toll on tourism generally, but the ostrich approach is not going to work. The internet is a free market place of ideas, and through the exchange of posts and views here and elsewhere, an accurate picture of Thailand emerges no matter how hard you might try to fight it.

 

Like I said earlier, Bangkok is not Mogadishu, but it isn't the peaceful wide open paradise for sanookers that some are trying to claim it is. It is much more complicated. It is not as wide open as it used to be, there are new alternatives coming up outside of Thailand (although I personally prefer Thailand, but than I speak Thai), and it is not as safe as some here pretend it is. This is unfortunate, I wish it was otherwise (I am sure the barowners do as well), but we need to be honest about the situation here.

[Prosal]

Zorro said:

WG

You didn't mention Indonesia.It has a fearsome rep when it comes to late night partying.

 

 

It's true. Jakarta has ALL to party. Hundreds of good clubs, dozens of fabulous late night venues, huge and impressing 'all-in-one' entertainment buildings open 24 hours, no hassles, dozens thousands of enthousiastics girls more or less in the game (the largest freelancing scene in the world IMO), ect ect. And the party atmosphere is there.

 

It's a highly revealing that the two most famous Singapore huge clubs, Zouk and Centro, have both chosen Jakarta, and not Bangkok or KL, for their first branches abroad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

It's true. Jakarta has ALL to party. Hundreds of good clubs, dozens of fabulous late night venues, huge and impressing 'all-in-one' entertainment buildings open 24 hours, no hassles, dozens thousands of enthousiastics girls more or less in the game (the largest freelancing scene in the world IMO), ect ect. And the party atmosphere is there.

 

It's a big sign that the two most famous Singapore huge clubs, Zouk and Centro, have both chosen Jakarta, and not Bangkok or KL, for their first branches abroad.

I am not about to relocate (or learn Bahasa), but is there a board like this for Jakarta that is newbie-friendly? I may pay a visit the next time we have a three day weekend here.

[Prosal]

 

"is there a board like this for Jakarta that is newbie-friendly ?"

 

 

Yep.

 

Nanaplaza.com.

 

"Is Jakarta worth a visit". Regional Sanuk.

 

Much more informative than WSG or Sammyboy. IMO the best mega-thread about JKT on the net.

 

 

 

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