Stickman this week regarding violence .

[thalenoi]

You are correct Zorro, in my opinion Thai people will prefer pay the 20 baht and walk away with their dick (sorry, tail) hanging to avoid confrontation.

 

Living more than 3 years here I do tend to believe this place is more prone to violence than most of us think it is.

 

This is what MiaLuk thinks is "fucking around" not paying the 20 baht?

[pattaya127]

The taxi baht thing in Pattaya is a bit different. Rides within the perimeter Zorro mentions are basically regulated to 10 bahts, or even 5 bahts, not sure (if 10, it could be that the 20 bahts were fair, since they were 2, actually).

of course, it does not mean that the drivers will not pull one, mostly when the farang is with a girl, but basically, rides are not up to an agreement, as happens with mototaxis.

I alway make sure before i hop on, of the price agreed. Even for a ride I take many times.

Just something I learnt the first few years, as the farang is wrong all the time, if wanting to pay less on an non-agreed price. I've had a couple drivers ask me if i wanted to

"boxing" back then, and yes, it's not worth it, especially when the "one on one" match is only done on a muay thai ring, over there.

 

Since then, I always make sure of the price beforehand, for anything and traveling anywhere. India is worse, the price is agreed and they still want more....

 

I think your case shows we are first and last farangs, no matter how long in the neighborood. It is important to never forget that.

[pattaya127]

I want to add that since misubderstandings happen in a few situations, my first reflex is not to get angry, but to smile. That's the idea in Thailand, free for some to think otherwise, but then, you are in a new territory, and yes, violence can happen then, unless it's a travel agent or an hotel clerk.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Zorro and all,

 

This has been an interesting and long thread so far.

 

I do agree with Zorro, what he points out is the "potential" for violence in Thailand for some absurd incident is there, always has been in my mind. The violent reaction that is so out of proportion to whatever the situation is is what makes me very careful when dealing with Thais, especially Thais in the lower social stratum.

 

I remember years ago when I was warned by an old Thai hand not to look an older Thai man directly in the eyes (much like the warnings not to stare directly into a dog's eyes). He said there was a distinct possibility it could cause a confrontation. I thought he was joking. He wasn't though. And I have seen this firsthand up in the village, especially with drunk Thai men. It's considered a challenge. Like a drunken farang man saying "You eyeballing me boy?" Reminds me exactly of the way male dogs behave really.

 

I have no idea if Thailand (Bangkok specifically) is more or less dangerous now than it was say ten years ago. I have seen some very dangerous shit go down, and fairly quickly at that. Guns can be flourished and used for threatening and intimidation and even used, (saw this in Isaan, but know the same would have been likely no matter where it was) for the slightest silly thing. I've seen this before at Thai concerts. I've seen much foolish behaviour, Thai on Thai, and usually where much drinking was involved, over the years coming and living here. I've also seen silly farangs who think their size makes them invulnerable in a confrontation with a Thai. They are wrong. I saw 2 extremely well muscled and large farang young men get the living shit beat out of them. For what I don't know, likely something they could have easily talked their way out of I'm sure (or paid their way out). Best thing to do in these situations is be calm, smile, pay up, and then go find a Thai Tourist Policeman to go back and settle the thing. Thailand is a funny place. It IS or at least CAN BE a very dangerous place and violence can explode over the simplest transgression or perceived slight, at times.

 

Has this increased in recent years? I don't know, but I do know the REPORTING of it has increased over the years, mostly due to the internet and boards like this and others where our experiences in Thailand can be easily shared. I also know that violnce here gets very ugly and dangerous extremely quick. I also know that most farang are out of their depth and out of their turf if things do go wrong, and the best thing to do is listen to what your lady or wife says when she says let's get the hell out of here ... quick quick. She DOES know what the hell is going down, much as you as a farang would on your own turf speaking your own language fluently and being used to what can happen in a farang setting. I listen to my wife, or whatever Thai I am with in these situations. I think I have a good eye and feeling for these situations, and I think I have good street sense. Mostly because I've been in other hairy situations at home and abroad, and can usually read body language to a fair degree. But, even with this I have been surprised by things and had violent things happen close to me that took me by surprise. Mostly because the flash point with Thais is hair trigger in these situations and I lack the language fluency to know fully what is being said. Without fluency you have only your instincts to go on when the shit is going down. Most coming here and a lot living here do not have the fluency to judge accurately when to get the hell out of dodge. If your instincts are crap and you haven't much experience in explosive situations you're all the more worse off.

 

One thing I'd point out is that BKK is a huge city with many citzens living there. It's New York City in Asia really. Is it any surprise that BKK can be a violent place at times? Or any large metropolitan area on the globe? Of course it can be dangerous. And of course one should be wary, especially late at night in a deserted soi (half in the wrapper as well for some) in a huge city like Bangkok where there are many low-lifes out and about looking for an easy score or just someone to bash around for fun.

 

Are farangs becoming more of a target in Thailand? I don't know for sure, but I do know I am hearing more and more stories about this stuff. Not only Thai on farang stuff, but Thai on Thai violence as well. What causes it has been bantered about here a lot, and I'd say a lot said here is right on the money. It's about the money. And yes, Thais seeing most farang as money trees, compared to themselves, a lot of the time, this disparity in income can cause a lot of resentment, especially if the Thai thinks he's getting screwed by some rich cocky farang. It makes for an explosive enviroment, at least simmering below the surface I'd think.

 

When Thais go off I've seen that they really do lose it completely, and the violence escalates very rapidly into an extremely dangerous situation. It's like a boiling kettle finally blowing off steam. All the frustrations are brought to bear on the particular "enemy" at hand.

 

Given that one isn't a Thai, is not on his home-turf, doesn't understand the language very well, if at all, and that the cops here aren't really that ubiquitous as they seem to be in most large metropolitan areas in the west, things can be very dangerous for a stranger in a strange land when the shit hits the fan.

 

I've seen fights here, I've seen guns pulled here in arguments, I've seen knives and clubs used, (saw a white kid being chased by a Thai guy waving a machete over his head. And yeah, if he caught the kid I have no doubt the machete would have been used) and "ratpacking" as some have called it in this thread. (Those who think this just an Asian or Thai thing are either leading a very sheltered life the past 10 to 20 years or just mouthing racist opinions really. Ratpacking is a very farang modus operandi now-a-days as well from my experience. The days of one-on-one fighting mano a mano are long gone I'm afraid gents. It happens everywhere now. White boys are just as likely to do this as Asians.) Thailand is a violent place at times. And it pays to be careful and wary, especially in certain areas and situations.

 

Do I feel safe in Thailand? For the most part I am usually comfortable, but wary. More comfortable than I would be in say New York City, or many parts of the states, especially in a city as large in size as Bangkok is. The states can be very dangerous, but then there I am much more aware of the dangers, on my own turf (I can spot trouble a block away!) , and fluent in the language and customs of my own nation of birth where I was born and bred. A lot easier to spot the problem areas and make a quick exit, or figure a defense or offense to meet the situation at hand.

 

For those railing about Stick's column on this, I say that although his piece may have been a bit alarmist (not much though) I find it was very timely and a good thing. It got this and other discussions going just about this problem and that is a good thing. Hell, it's journalism, and he did stir things up and get everyone talking about this. Good on him I say. It's a serious subject and needs to be brought out and discussed. Sharing these stories helps us all be more aware of our surroundings, and hopefully will help a few people reading this to become more wary and maybe avoid a potentially dangerous situation.

 

To those who say, "Well, I've been coming here a long time and never saw anything like this myself." Well, good for you, stick around bub. Spend some more time here (not just a week or two or four a year)and you will one day see how violent a place it can be at times. All out of proportion to what is necessary really too from what I've seen. Booze related mostly, or pussy related, or face related, or money related, or a combination of some or all above.

 

Same like anywhere in the world where human beings gather where these ingredients are mixed into the pot.

 

Be careful out there guys. The potential for extreme violence IS here in the Land of Smiles. It pays to at least acknowledge this and be a bit wary and keep your wits about you. And LISTEN to your tilac (whether P4P or not) when she says "Let's get out of here darling. The shit's about to hit the fan!" She will know when to split the scene.

 

Shit happens. It might seem stupid shit but it is shit all the same. Also consider where a lot of farangs hang out. It isn't the bar in the Hilton for chrissakes this stuff usually happens. And personally I am as wary, or even more so, around the drunken farangs as I am around the Thais. I've had more problems with drunk farangs than with Thais, but then I am not out drinking and partying in the Thai areas all the time either, so that's likely the reason why.

 

Cent

[MaiLuk]

Excellent post.

 

I also know that most farang are out of their depth and out of their turf if things do go wrong, and the best thing to do is listen to what your lady or wife says when she says let's get the hell out of here ... quick quick. She DOES know what the hell is going down, much as you as a farang would on your own turf speaking your own language fluently and being used to what can happen in a farang setting.

 

Yes I agree you should get the hell out if your lady tells you to. Not always easy for farang who have this honor thing and don't want to appear to back down.

 

One caveat tho about the ladies. You cannot always rely on them to keep you out of trouble. Sometimes they will be the one to lead you into a dangerous situation. Either because she is clueless (a girl off the rice farm and in the big mango a short time) or the girl simply doesn't give a shit about the farang's safety.

 

So your still stuck relying on your instinct for whatever that may be worth. If some beautiful BG wants me to take her to some obscure thai place i know nothing about my radar goes up. It may be that its fine to go there. But i do not feel comfortable showing up with a hot thai girl in some unknown thai bar/hangout, she can be a magnet for trouble.

 

At Figjam: You think i have a double standard about farang and thai guys, the only violence i personally encountered in LOS was with a thai guy. The fact is i am paranoid about thai guys. Cent's post sums up the reasons and tourists should read that post closely. Could save someone's ass to be aware of those "meek" appearing thais.

[MaiLuk]

Bubi:

 

In my book, anyone who has built a house in issan is automatically credentialed to pontificate on things thai.

 

Your detractors who have not done the same have some catching up to do.

[MaiLuk]

thalenoi said:

You are correct Zorro, in my opinion Thai people will prefer pay the 20 baht and walk away with their dick (sorry, tail) hanging to avoid confrontation.

 

Living more than 3 years here I do tend to believe this place is more prone to violence than most of us think it is.

 

This is what MiaLuk thinks is "fucking around" not paying the 20 baht?

 

Zorro (and bkktraveller) were not being belligerent.

 

BTW, i have always been paying 10 baht for the baht taxi what is this about 5 baht?

[MaiLuk]

khunsanuk said:

Hi,

 

Have been told the same by my wife. Some of the motorbike guys charge 20 Baht now for what should be a 15 Baht ride, and I tended to express my displeasure with that.

 

She knows this and has specifically told me to just pay the 20 Baht as people get killed over this (her words).

 

 

 

And the $64 question is: When do you just pay up? And when do you refuse to pay so that you do not get a reputation as the stupid farang who overpays? Seems that protecting your reputation involves risk.

[Central Scrutinizer]

MaiLuk,

 

In some areas/routes in Pattaya the baht-bus cost is 5 baht. I have a digital-pic somewhere I took last year showing the rates on a sticker in the back of a Pattaya baht-bus I took one day just to prove this is correct.

 

But why anyone would argue with a baht-bus mafia Thai guy who might be in a bad mood over 5 or 10 baht is beyond me. Principles are one thing, but getting bashed in the head with a tire iron by some ill-tempered illiterate bahtbus boy for a lousy 5 or 10 baht just isn't my idea of sanuk, and over the course of a week how much does it really add up to? A beer or two extra you've paid maybe over a one or two week period? Big deal. There are principles, and then there are principles. I'll make my stand over larger issues. It's just not in me to argue over small change in a third world country with some obnoxious petty thief of a bus driver. Especially considering the possible consequences over that small of an amount of change. Just isn't worth it.

 

And no, I don't consider this "fucking around" or being belligerent, just foolish I'd say.

 

And really, the guy thinks he's getting his back at the farang by gyping him out of 5 baht. It's actually pathetic and laughable. The farang's probably fucking his relatives! So I'd let it slide. Just ain't worth the aggravation to me. Really, who's got the last and best laugh if you bring it down to the mafia guy's level of thought?

 

If I have to worry about being ripped off a lousy 5 or 10 baht once in a while I'd better pack up and move back to Beantown. It's just a minor annoyance, which really only happens in the farang tourist areas (or the occassional double priced tourist trap venue). I don't encounter this shit in Surin thankfully.

 

Cent

 

p.s. And to others here ready to get into the double pricing and other "outrages" and minor rip-offs argument ... don't. I won't play.

[FIGJAM]

As my posts show, I clearly agree with most of what you say here.

 

Two points, though:

 

Cent said:"ratpacking" as some have called it in this thread. (Those who think this just an Asian or Thai thing are either leading a very sheltered life the past 10 to 20 years or just mouthing racist opinions really. Ratpacking is a very farang modus operandi now-a-days as well from my experience. The days of one-on-one fighting mano a mano are long gone I'm afraid gents. It happens everywhere now. White boys are just as likely to do this as Asians.)

While groups fightings may be more common now (gangs etc), involving a group of friends and relatives to resolve what originally was a one person vs one person dispute IS DEFINITELY NOT THE USUAL "FARANG" MODUS OPERANDI NOWADAYS.

 

Are you really seeing Americans, nowadays, forming groups of friends and family to go back and beat up their original single opponents?

I am certainly NOT seeing that in Italy and there are NO consistent news being reported showing this new trend forming and spreading.

 

And moreover, talking now about disputes between a national and a foreigner, I have witnessed in Thailand BYSTANDERS and PASSERSBY getting involved in farang beatings when they had fuck all to do with the matters involved. Show me this happening in farangland on a consistent basis.

With the tons of (mostly illegal) immigrants we have coming in Italy especially from north Africa and Albania the news almost invariably report of problems between a group of them (they usually hang together) and a single or a smaller group of Italians with usually no other Italians getting involved if not for calling the police and assisting the victims after they are left bleeding on the ground (due to very strict laws very few here carry knives, except those who have little or nothing to lose, and no one has guns).

 

I am waiting for your consistent reports of bands of Americans intervening on the side of a single American attacked or attacking a single foreigner.

 

 

And yes, Thais seeing most farang as money trees, compared to themselves, a lot of the time, this disparity in income can cause a lot of resentment, especially if the Thai thinks he's getting screwed by some rich cocky farang. It makes for an explosive enviroment, at least simmering below the surface I'd think.

And this is another aspect of their xenophobia I've touched upon.

 

In Thailand being wealthy is someway an indication that you are to some extent "a better person".

Thais are not spitting hatred and resentfulness over the wealthy higher classes and there are no evident signs of mounting social unrests from the mass of "have-nots" towards the ruling rich, arrogant, elitist, snotty "haves".

 

As I have written in another thread on the violence in LOS, in reply to Old Hippie stating that Thais "get the satisfaction of standing up for themselves":

Thais are taught from day 1 to bend over and take it all up the ass with a smile and no lube if it comes from someone of higher status and/or economic means (which usually go hand in hand in LOS).

That's why in LOS you see the rich obscenely flaunting their wealth in all possible ways in their fellows' poorer faces, cutting queues, parking wherever they feel like, abusing vendors, service staffs and so on without fear of any bullshit cultural taboos...

The problem for us farangs is that we don't usually even score in their pecking order and for sure farang drunk whoremongers are little above soi dogs, and I imagine you know how Thais feel for sick old soi dogs...