Boring_Man Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 suadum said:LOL...and we have a winner. That is *exactly* it! And the books proved it. Cheers, SD I'm not an intimate of TC, but he was a good guy and happy to talk business when I was there with SD. First off, the Chang offer was not an actual money loser. TC told me he paid 17baht/bottle and most people couldn't get beyond four. That's 32baht profit right there, lol! The real point of the game became immediately clear at the end of the promotion time. TC would get up and ring the bell, putting everyone in a happy party mood. When I saw this I started to laugh and said "You really have the home field advantage here, don't you?" He laughed too, and sure enough several customers rang the bell within the next few minutes. Not a bad way to do business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Quote: Old Hippie said: I have seen the way Boss Hog acts, frankly, I am shocked no one has :filled him in/sorted him out" yet. LHL Said: Actually, that has happened. Twice if i recall correctly. Not so much because of his tough business demeanor, but rather because of his personal 'charm'. Stick, This is what I am refering to, the way he acts. or interacts with people, especially Thais. A few examples, I was there one time, when he watched a man and woman (Thai) unload about 20+ cases of beer, waited until they were done, and wanted their money, to tell them he didn't want the beer, he had found another, cheaper, supplier ...after a bit of yelling, he got one of the girls to translate for him, and what he wanted translated wasn't very polite. The girl didn't want to translate nasty words/phrases, and he told her "do it or you're fired." After a bit of screaming, they started to take the beer back, they got about 1/2 of it loaded, and he decided he wanted it after all, and just smirked, it appeared he was just trying to impress some or all of his customers... Another example was the motor bike parking in front of his place. O.k. He had a point, but he bought the place knowing all the bikes had always been parked there. Additionally, he started some shit with the Hamburger guy, Something about him expecting the hamburger guy to pay him for being in front of his bar... he lost that round. Just basic crap like that. But I am really not privy to his inner business dealings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 This is what I am refering to, the way he acts. or interacts with people, especially Thais. A few examples, I was there one time, when he watched a man and woman (Thai) unload about 20+ cases of beer, waited until they were done, and wanted their money, to tell them he didn't want the beer, he had found another, cheaper, supplier ...after a bit of yelling, he got one of the girls to translate for him, and what he wanted translated wasn't very polite. The girl didn't want to translate nasty words/phrases, and he told her "do it or you're fired." After a bit of screaming, they started to take the beer back, they got about 1/2 of it loaded, and he decided he wanted it after all, and just smirked, it appeared he was just trying to impress some or all of his customers... Another example was the motor bike parking in front of his place. O.k. He had a point, but he bought the place knowing all the bikes had always been parked there. Additionally, he started some shit with the Hamburger guy, Something about him expecting the hamburger guy to pay him for being in front of his bar... he lost that round. Just basic crap like that. But I am really not privy to his inner business dealings. As I see it, this sort of stuff in the context of this dispute actually cuts in favor of BH and against TC. I have also heard stories about questionable business practices by BH, but nothing as specific as this. Let me explain why I think this cuts in favor of BH and against TC because I suspect it is a bit counterintuitive for anyone that doesn't constantly do deals for a living (that is how I kind of view my life here - financing and loans are deals). If you know that BH pulls these sorts of stunts with suppliers and other vendors (e.g., the hamburger guy), you should also know that when dealing with him you had better get any promise or agreement from him confirmed in writing. For example, if BH implies or says he will consent to an assignment or a sublease to the new owners, you had better get it in writing. Same thing in my business. If I am dealing with someone who has a bad reputation, than I am an extra careful; I make sure that everything is properly documented and insist on additional protections that I might not require of someone who enjoys a good reputation. It will probably sound strange to someone who doesn't do deals, but if you are dealing with a known jerk, and you don't get it all in writing, you - not the jerk - are the one who will get blamed when things goes sideways. Why? Because you should have known better. At least that is how my bosses view things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Your reasoning is perfectly fine and I agree 100%. But as I posted before, per my source (who may truly know and does not have any further interest in the matter, so I have no reason to no believe him) says that the transfer was allowed per the lease he saw -- he was a potential buyer, so he does speak with some authority. The clause in question AFAIK is the ability of the leaseholder (BH) to get more keymoney from the buyer of the lease. It seems to me from the outside looking in that the buyers did not understand what that actually meant. And perhaps TC did not explain it fully. . But then again, that is not his job, is it? It is the buyer's job to understand what he is getting into. Not gospel, just a compliation of the info that I have gleaned over the past few months. Cheers, SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 ... says that the transfer was allowed per the lease he saw -- he was a potential buyer, so he does speak with some authority. The clause in question AFAIK is the ability of the leaseholder (BH) to get more keymoney from the buyer of the lease. If the lease allowed TC to transfer his sublease to someone else, what is BH's beef? And why should the new owners have any problems? If TC's sublease clearly said he could transfer the lease, no one should have to pay any keymoney. In this context, keymoney would be money paid to the master lessor (here, presumably BH) to procure his consent to a transfer of the sublease. If the sublease already had a clause saying it could be transferred, you don't need to pay BH anything, and BH should not be in a position to do anything to upset the deal. You have more details than me, but my impression is that the lease was silent on transfer, and no one stopped and thought that through carefully - except perhaps BH, who used this oversight to his advantage? I have this impression because TC's post on this issue - excerpts of that post are quoted above in this thread - are confusing and he seems to contradict himself. Who knows? In any event, I do agree with you that the buyer should have checked this out himself. If nothing else, this little episode and the reports on it should serve as cautionary tale for anyone on this board who is thinking of buying a bar (or any other business) in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 The whole thing is that from the very start the offer sounded dodgy with leases sub leases key money blah blah...quite frankly who could be bothered.......same same with buying property in Thailand.....better ways to make money and much easier in your own country where there is some transparency in the laws and some sort of protection.....good luck to those that make money in Thailand.....I will continue to spend my money in Thailand and make it where the odds are not so stacked against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pe7e Posted October 23, 2005 Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 There's sharp practice in business everywhere in the world, and like boxers, you should defend yourself at all times. Remember, it's the one's you trust that let you down. I have a supplier here in the UK with who I do some great deals, but I count my fingers every time we shake hands! :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2005 Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 I agree with you about the risks of doing business and buying property here, but the amazing thing is that the property boom here, particularly in resort areas such as Phuket and Koh Samui, just continues. Real estate developers are "selling" properties in Phuket to ex-pats in the region of US$1 million, and people are buying. Although this is a risky environment, I think foreign businesses can do well here, if they proceed cautiously and they find the right market niche. Thailand is a good base for manufacturing, but I cannot see it competiting with places such as Singapore or Hong Kong for professional services. A big part of the problem is that Thailand is protectionist to the point of being paranoid when it comes to allowing foreign ownership of businesses in the service sector. Because of the restrictions on foreign ownership, there is less competition and thus less innovation and development, which causes the local service sector to fall further behind international competitors. This, in turn, makes local businesses in the service sector press for more protection from international competition, which, in turn, makes them less competitive. It's a vicious cycle. Strangely enough, however, these protectionist rules also create opportunities for foreign businesses and professionals. The protectionist rules generate ineffeciency, which means that foreign companies (and individuals) used to operating in a more competitive international environment are often more effecient and have a competitive advantage. And since there are ways to get around the protectionist barriers such as the Alien Business Law - cumbersome as they may be - foreignors can and will, if the returns are high enough, enter the local market using all sorts of cumbersome, and some might say dodgy, structures. In just the last five years, I think the number of ex-pat professionals here has probably doubled. Thailand's economy is very globalized; it is largely based on exports and tourism (many of them male tourists, oddly enough ) Unless Thailand totally withdraws from the global economy ala Myanmar, the demand for the skills and expertise that foreignors and foreign businesses provide will continue to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted October 23, 2005 Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 Does escrow exist in Thailand? Where the money could be placed in an account until the deal is finalized, all parities satisfied, and then title/lease and money transferred? Seems that the appropriately titled Boss Hogg is just doing what people have been doing since day one. Since he is the actual lease holder he feels that he needs more ca$h to justify a new tennant. There is no guarentee that the new tennant will do a good job yet and he is protecting his asset. Think of the costs that he could incurr if the new tennant bails after a few months of being super-punter? I have no knowledge of the deal, have never met boss hogg or top cat, and genuinely feel sorry for the chap who is being hit up for 'key' money. I have been in the cathouse and know that it was a popular place and run well. I would be leery of accepting a new tennant if I didn't think he could run the bar in the same manner and guarantee me my rent payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Toad Posted October 23, 2005 Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) Never applied more than it does in Thailand. In any transaction, invloving a lease that I have ever been involved with in any country, all leaseholders in the chain need to give their consent. If you buy a lease you need to make certain that permissions have been granted by the lissuer of your lease and the issuer of that lease etc. etc. There are various people at fault here: none the least being the agents who brokered the deal who advised the purchasers. But why do people come here and ignore every legal step they would take in their home country and simply listen to the seller. This happens, in one way or the other, every week, if not every day, in Thailand and it is usually farangs screwing farangs Caveat emptor: doubly so when in the Land of lost money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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