"To khrap or not to khrap"

[Guest]

Not speaking Thai I don't use Khrap much - but I do use it as an acknowledgement when a Thai (usually a Bargirl!) is talking to me (in either english or Thinglish) to show that I understand.

I use it as a variation (NOT a replacement) of things like: "Ok", "sure", "yup" etc.

Rightly or wrongly I also pronouce it Capp (as in the cartoon Andy Capp )

No doubt someone will now tell me that I have been "impersonating" a ladyboy

One thing I have noticed is that when a Thai female is on the phone and someone is speaking to her they use Ka (as in Ford Ka!) about a million times a minute

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mr_Teapot ]

[Guest]

After talking to a Thai friend of mine who is actually a teacher of Thai language at Thammasart University, he told me that the correct way to say "khrap" is DEFINITELY pronouncing the "R" in it... i.e. "Khrap" , NOT "Khup".

I know that the correct pronounciation has the 'r' in it, just like it is 'rooy' and not 'looy', 'roon' and not 'loon', etc.

However, the average person on the street does not pronounce those r's and since this is the group most of us will be talking to, I tend to adapt.

I always tell people who are learning to speak any language to try to avoid lazy (or ignorant) habits. Speaking the language "properly" helps a lot when trying to read (and write). And I would rather err on the side of sounding too educated than too ignorant.

There are lots of words I've had to look up because I couldn't match up the spelling with the way I'd heard the word. "Pung plui" was the most recent case; I'd never heard the 'l' before because it is relatively subtle, and whenever I said "Pung pui" people always knew what I meant and never corrected me.

Also, if you intend to say "capp" or "cup" it will probably end up not sounding very Thai at all. But if you say "khrap" as if it were an English word it will also not be right. Putting just a teeny bit of the 'r' works for me.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

Hua Nguu :

"Incidentally I`ve never heard a thai guy use it when adressing women."

Maybe I am hanging around Thai gays too much?

Seriously though, several of the husbands on my wife's friends use this constantly as well. As do some of the guys in the office.

Mr_Teapot :

"One thing I have noticed is that when a Thai female is on the phone and someone is speaking to her they use Ka (as in Ford Ka!) about a million times a minute"

Unless they are talking to a close friend, then it becomes 'uhh'

Farangdang :

"I always tell people who are learning to speak any language to try to avoid lazy (or ignorant) habits. Speaking the language "properly" helps a lot when trying to read (and write). And I would rather err on the side of sounding too educated than too ignorant."

I have learned the language by listening and repeating. I have had virtually no formal training. As a result I am often told that my Thai sounds very natural. Guess not speaking the language "properly" hasn't hurt me any.

BTW, is it really 'lazy' to replace 'r' with 'l', or leave it out? I mean, I can easily pronounce the words either way. One does not more cost more effort than the other. So why would it be 'lazy' to chose one over the other?

Furthermore, for a lot of Thais pronouncing the 'r' sound is very difficult. My wife has been studying English (intensively I might add) for about a month now, but she can not pronounce the 'r' sound. Regardless of how hard she tries, she can not pronounce it. Would this be considered laziness?

Sanuk!

[bibblies]

Why is it that so many Thais can't pronounce the 'r' (raw reua) sound? It's there in their alphabet - why have it if you're not going to use it?

I've found that many Thais don't understand my pronounciation of the 'r' sound (I pronounce it the English way), but if I replace it with the 'l' I get results.

[Guest]

yeah Bibblies me too!! When I first started coming to thailand bout 8 years ago, I got the phrase books and tapes and learned all these words like sawadee krup! But when I came to Thailand no one was doing the rrrrrr, but then, some years later I did find thais who rrrrr and they tend to wealthy/powerful types that I have only been with on a few occasions. Is there maybe some kind of class distinction here maybe??? Has anyone else seen this??? Ahhh well, mai pen rai or mai pen lai?,

[Lamock Chokaprret]

Personally, I like to crap twice a day.

Seriously though, SanukBoot said:

quote:

---

Another you may here from Thai females is "jaa".....They sometimes use this to replace Kha....

---

Are you sure you're not referring to a response in Khmen that is essentially 'yes'? My girl uses it only when she's speaking Khmen with family or friends and I have no idea whether it is a feminine or masculine affectation (I've heard few males speaking Khmen).

This is not to be confused with 'ja' (short vowel) which is the Thai particle to indicate future tense.

[Guest]

I have learned the language by listening and repeating. I have had virtually no formal training. As a result I am often told that my Thai sounds very natural. Guess not speaking the language "properly" hasn't hurt me any.

I'm not criticizing anyone's language skills, do whatever you think is best to suit your needs. However, I think if you learn Thai only this way you will have certain limitations on how far you can go; language, socially and careerwise. I'm sure the vast majority of Thai people would be amazed at how well you speak and even in formal situations wouldn't think less of you. However, I am always wary that I will end up speaking like a bargirl to the wrong people. My personal choice is that I would rather sound educated (but not snotty or elitist).

BTW, is it really 'lazy' to replace 'r' with 'l', or leave it out? I mean, I can easily pronounce the words either way. One does not more cost more effort than the other. So why would it be 'lazy' to chose one over the other?

It's easier because you don't need to know if it's an 'r' or an 'l', not because it's easier to say. For you and many Thais it doesn't matter since you won't ever need to write it and in context you always know what it means.

Furthermore, for a lot of Thais pronouncing the 'r' sound is very difficult. My wife has been studying English (intensively I might add) for about a month now, but she can not pronounce the 'r' sound. Regardless of how hard she tries, she can not pronounce it. Would this be considered laziness?

I assume she can't pronounce 'r' because her family, friends and neighbors couldn't pronounce it. She had no need at the time to learn it, so it certainly wasn't laziness. Most likely other Thai people can tell from her speech (and yours) something about her background, whatever that is. It doesn't say anything about her honesty or even intelligence, but it does say something about her education and where she grew up.

Many "educated" Thai people also pronounce their 'r' and 'l' the same, not to mention having other (IMO) bad speech habits. In this case, I would label them lazy (or ignorant).

We could have the same discussion over "Ebonics" in America (although that is a more extreme case), every nation and language has their own examples.

I'm not an expert by any means on these topics, I'm just putting forth my opinions and half-baked theories.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

"I'm not criticizing anyone's language skills"

Didn't think you were.

"However, I think if you learn Thai only this way you will have certain limitations on how far you can go; language, socially and careerwise."

Have to disagree with you here. Several of the people at work (very prestigious as far as Thais are concerned) don't really put all that much emphasize on pronouncing the 'r'.

I suppose that if I wanted to hang out with politicians and other hi-so people you would be right, but I have no intention of doing so. Can't stand the stuck up /snobbist attitude.

I also fail to see how this would limit my career.

"However, I am always wary that I will end up speaking like a bargirl to the wrong people."

I agree, but then again, I don't speak like a bargirl. I have been here long enough to figure out what is, and what is not appropriate vocabulary.

"It's easier because you don't need to know if it's an 'r' or an 'l', not because it's easier to say. For you and many Thais it doesn't matter since you won't ever need to write it and in context you always know what it means."

Granted.

"It doesn't say anything about her honesty or even intelligence, but it does say something about her education and where she grew up.

Many "educated" Thai people also pronounce their 'r' and 'l' the same, not to mention having other (IMO) bad speech habits."

Don't these two statements contradict each other? After all how would someone be able to tell if she was part of the first or of the second group?

Sanuk!

[Guest]

All times are Bangkok Time, even if they're not.

[FIGJAM]

Yes, and when they pronounce for instance your name and "jaaaaa" with a prolonged rising tone it begins to get interesting.

OK, my "GF" has recently started this (my name followed by a "jaaaaa" pronunced the way you described it) but she doesn't want to tell me its meaning (she speaks a very poor English, anyway). So, what exactly does it mean? Sure it's good?

 

Ciao, Pao.