Michael Moore slices up US health system in new film

[Steve]

In a similar thread about health but specifically about the price of drugs to 3rd world countries I posted about a suggestion I heard on a panel once about having the UN or some international body offer a one time fee to any person or company or country that comes up with a cure for certain high profile deseases like HIV or cancer. Basically a reward of something like 100 billion for a cure and the world will be able to use it for ever. Split amongst the world's governments, 100 billion wouldn't be too much I would think. If it was paid over a few years perhaps the fee wouldn't be that hard on the wallet. I thought it was a novel idea at the time and would at least do something about providing HIV drugs to places like Africa where its rampant but they don't have the money to pay the costs the drug companies wanted. I don't know if it could work though. However, a certain fee for a cure for cancer would encourage even more research for a cure since a definite financial carrot would be offered. I could see China or the U.S. or England, Germany or France trying to find a cure. It doesn't specifically address the health care system issue in America that Moore talks about but its something to consider as part of a long term solution.

 

I recall years ago there was a neighborhood doctor. Everyone had one, even in the inner city. He was affordable because he priced his services according to the demographics of where he practiced. That has gone almost completely. I recall reading something about that once. Partly due to the increase in lawsuits and having to buy malpractice insurance which wasn't an issue years ago. Also, the advent of the HMO and laws made to force the family doctor out of existance in most places. Health insurance through companies made it financially more feasible to go to one of their 'approved' HMOs. You pay more nowadays if you want your own doctor (often called PPO on your choice at a company).

 

Another thing that has to be dealt with if we want any kind of affordable health care system is the AMA. The American Medical Association enforces a system that only allows so many doctors into the system to keep their salaries high. They defend it by saying that we have the best doctors and with scare tactics that if they allow 'less qualified' candidates it would lower the standard of medical care. These 'less qualified' candidates aren't the C or D student or even the B student most of us are but students that would be in the top 1 or 2 percentile of their graduating universities. The fact is the med schools turn away people who are more than capable of being excellent doctors. There are doctors in europe and places like Thailand who are excellent and would a similar excellent job in America but would not be able to become a doctor in the U.S. The AMA is a private instution that is treated as if its the government. I have a friend in med school now in the caribbean. She was near top of her class at UCLA for her BS and due to the extreme competitiveness of getting into a med school (and costs), went to the Caribbean for her schooling. She is malaysian by ancestry and got into med schools in europe no problem but didn't want to travel that far away from home. There are thousands that do this and come back to the U.S. and have great careers. She has a few friends who went to the Caribbean and were smart enough to become 'board certified' for their specialty when they came back. I would love to see the government have its own medical board that rivals the AMA who in effect put a quota for financial reasons instead of medical care reasons.

 

 

[Bangkoktraveler]

When a government has employees that have better benefits then the people who pay the taxes for the benefits, it probably is a sign that change is coming. Can you imagine an internal revolution in the USA and a govenment that really serves the people instead of the people serving the few elitist government employees?

[Steve]

The congress have given themselves medical and retirement salaries that far exceed what the average american has. With the exception of the President and a select other few, I wish someone in congress would be brave enough to say that all congressmen would have to be subject to the same health system that they enact.

 

They give themselves retirement pensions for 4 or 8 years work. The rest of us have to work 30 years for. They use the excuse that they have sacrificed careers and such to serve the public. Who asked them to? They ran for office of their own volition and want to be rewarded financially for it. Originally the founders saw serving in government as a duty and repayment to a nation that has granted them the freedom to pursue happiness. They served and went back to their home states afterwards. How things have changed.

[bibblies]

...The clue's in the word 'communist'. That word and 'economic basket case' always go together.

I'd say China & Vietnam are doing pretty well...

And it's coincidence that their economies started to get much better the more capitalist measures they adopted?

 

I can't believe anyone would still believe in communism after all the evidence has shown it to be unworkable much worse shit. What about the people who say "Yes' date=' it does work - the only trouble is that it's never been done [i']properly[/i]."

 

Did the same people keep putting their hands over a flame when they were kids, the first burn not deterring them, because they thought maybe the first time they didn't do it properly?

 

(Fidel, that was you as a child. )

 

What does the fact that Moore is obese or whatever have to do with his message?

(I take it you're a fatty? )

 

Seriously, because health is a fundamental area of personal responsibility.

 

There is so much that people can do about it themselves and most of them don't even try.

 

An example from today (front of my yahoo - I don't even have to search)

Obesity is cancer time-bomb

Research shows that up to 40 percent of cancers could be prevented through a healthy diet and regular exercise, but Britons are failing to look after their health..

 

Isn't it disingenuous of people who don't take any responsibility for their own health to then expect everyone else to pretty much pick up the tab? This is especially grating in a socialist NHS type system where things are paid for through taxes.

 

The NHS has pretty bad rates for cancer survival compared to other major countries btw. This is partly because they mismanage their huge resources in such a way that they claim they can't afford to buy the new drugs that have been used for years in places like the US, Canada, France, etc.

 

The whole thing's a waste-bucket for bureaucracy (it's the biggest employer of people in Europe!)and politics - a really inefficient way to spend resources on health.

 

One of my non-tits pleasures in Thailand is to go to the doctor or dentist. I can pretty much walk in and get treated then and there by nice smiling friendly assistants! Compare that to the NHS where you have to call and the receptionist may grudgingly allow you an appointment a few weeks or months later, at a time convenient to them and not you.

 

Like pretty much any 'public service', it's geared towards the needs of the public servants, not the public.

[chuckwoww]

China has a few health care problems too...

 

 

China unveiled plans yesterday to deploy police in hospital wards and outpatient clinics to protect medical staff from the public, amid growing instances of physical violence meted out by patients furious at charges and dubious treatment.

 

The government is concerned about increased attacks on doctors, nurses and administrative staff as the healthcare system becomes the focus of resentment about the gap between rich and poor.

 

According to the China Daily, 5,500 medical workers were injured last year in assaults and protests, causing more than 200m yuan (£13m) damage.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,2078004,00.html

 

[bibblies]

The NHS gets attacks all the time from drunk and violent 'patients' who stumble in from nights out and fights and make it hell for everyone by continuing to act like arseholes.

 

This is what I mean about a state 'free at point of use' system helping to divorce cost from personal responsibility.

 

There are a large number of people in the UK who act however they want and still expect to be fixed for free, whatever they do. :thumbdown:

[Steve]

This is what's also going to happen with public health care. Obesity is going to be called a desease and seen the same as if you had cancer. We are going to include any malady that we knowingly inflict on ourselves label it a 'desease' and the public asked to foot the bill.

 

I want to see a viable plan. However, I am positive anything we come up with will end up being a disaster in this country. After giving it some thought, the post office is about the only national system that works. As much as we complain, we do get our mail. They keep increasing rates now (now 41 cents for a first class stamp). How is that possible that they lose money in a monopoly and need to raise rates. The consitution says the government should have a postal system. I don't see where it says they can't have competition and they are the only ones.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. We need a viable plan.

[Flashermac]

<< A freind from Belgium was here for the first time and shocked at the portion sizes ... >>

 

 

I went back to work in the US for a few years. I remember my astonishment at restaurant servings. I would order a meal and a huge platter piled with food would arrive. My reaction was that it couldn't all be for me. There must be some mistake and I'd ordered enough for everyone at the table!

 

At first I could only eat about half of what was on the plate, and unfortunately I was raised by my mother -- who grew up during the 1930s depression -- to "clean your plate". But after a while, I was eating it all, like everyone else. And within six months I'd put on 20 pounds and was as fat as everyone else.

 

p.s. Still, Michael Moore really is a fat slob. He must eat enough in one day to feed a poor family in the Third World. Yet that thought doesn't seem to bother him. Is there a bit of hypocrisy in it?

 

 

[chuckwoww]

I was watching a film about the war in the Pacific the landings at Iwo Jima etc...I can't believe how skinny and tough all those young Americans were in those days.

[Flashermac]

Pre-junk food. Also, those were by and large US Marines -- some of the fittest of the fit. When I was in the Army, we were fed enough -- but not more. Also, we ran it off ... starting every day by running a couple of miles. (At least, that was true for combat troops. Probably not for the desk jockeys.)

 

p.s. I weighed under 160 lbs in Vietnam, and I'm a six footer. Now I have to fight just to stay in the 180s.