Dead tourist #5 in Chiang Mai

[Flashermac]

 

 

<< There is some unique Thai aspect to this that a foreign mind just cannot understand. >>

 

 

I'd say it is Asian more than Thai. Monte Python's dead parrot sketch could easily have taken place in a pet shop in SE Asia.

 

 

[Bangkoktraveler]

Why do islamist blow themselves up, because they come back as heroes and have 72 virgins. Thais, predominately being buddhists believe in reincarnation, so, they think, what is all the fuss about someone's death, karma will fix all.

 

There is a tendency in the west to romanticize Thai lifestyle and the buddhist religion. Why? I, will never know, nor do I want to know because I will tink to mut

 

I tend to find Thais as 'so matter of fact' it can be unnerving sometimes.

 

There is a small portion of Thais, IMO, who believe that great wealth can come at any cost, and the poor (believing in an ancient religious doctrine - reincarnation & what goes around, comes around) willingly excuse this anomaly. It is the Asian way of, 'she'll be right mate' in a perverse way.

 

 

I guess all religions teach of a 'great reward' such as going to heaven and that people really don't die. They reincarnate, go to hell, go to heaven, got to purgatory or whatever.

 

The 'reward' might be the main tool governments use to get people to fight their 'wars'.

 

[gobbledonk]

Am I correct in saying that the 'end game' in Buddhism is to break the 'death-rebirth' cycle by reaching enlightenment ? Effectively, if all life is suffering then ending that suffering has to be a good thing, right ?

 

While I'm sure there are 'holier-than-thou' Buddhists, I have never heard of fundamentalist Buddhists who want to consign non-believers to hell - always prepared to hear otherwise.

 

Christianity and Islam both have an endless supply of fundamentalists who are happy to do exactly that - the 'chosen few' ideal. As one commentator recently put it, if I blow myself up in a crowded market killing hundreds in the belief that its God's will, I do it in the knowledge that there are only two sets of people at that market - infidels/apostates and true believers : the former were going to hell anyway and the latter will thank me for ensuring that they go straight to Heaven.

 

Effectively, the only way to ensure an end to all this suffering is by the total removal of religion. Hitler tried, Stalin tried and several communist regimes have given it a very good shake, to no avail. Bring on the comet.

 

 

 

[Wallenda]

Effectively, the only way to ensure an end to all this suffering is by the total removal of religion. Hitler tried, Stalin tried and several communist regimes have given it a very good shake, to no avail. Bring on the comet.

 

Maybe it's not something that any leader has to 'try'. More something that people need to gradually figure out. I think these days the percentages of atheists and agnostics are way up in Europe at least, with no assistance on the part of Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron, et al.

 

By the way, Hitler actually made reference to an almighty at times -- his record on the topic is spotty at best. I'm not sure if it's due to the communists or not, but here in Vietnam lots of people are aetheists -- I'd peg it around 30%, maybe higher. Then again, a lot of them do drink bear bile so they can f*$& long time, and dumb stuff like that -- so it's not all rosy.

[Flashermac]

Belief in something seems to be a human necessity. The fascists and communists turned their political beliefs into a religion-subsitute. Help them achieve their power, and all sorts of wonderful things will happen! Notice it is always in the future - in an after life or an always distant future. But never fear, the day will arrive!

 

As to Thais being Buddhist, it has been noted many times that the average Thai is not the least interested in achieving Englightenment. What they are concerned about is that their next life will not be any worse than the present one and hopefully a bit better. Thais are only token Buddhists. The Buddha ridiculed magic charms, magic amulets, protecting tattoos, monks with magical powers etc. Very few Thais feel the same way.

 

I remember a story about the Buddha supposedly being told an Indian holy man had meditated for 8 years until he developed the ability to walk on water. The Buddha replied, "Why didn't he save time and take a boat?"

 

People talk about monks "blessing" a house, taxi or person. In fact monks have no blessings, not Buddhist anyway. When monks chant they are repeating the Buddha's teachings to educate the listeners. There is no appeal to Divinity or any supernatural power at all. As Rama IV said to his brother when he was still abbot of Wat Baworniwet: "Ours is a rather agnostic religion." That is why Thais have "borrowed" various Hindu gods to ask for help.

 

 

[radioman]

I'd say that was about right.Buddhism forgives, but of course if you really transgress you might come back as a soi dog, hey now you know why the old dears feed those mangy mutts, might just be old uncle Somchai! Climbing the ladder of enlightenment is a long process, expect a few thousand rebirths, though of course you will not know because each has a separate and independent consciousness. It's certainly a long time since anybody achieved it in one lifetime since we are now at 2544 years B.E. (Beyond Enlightenment) of the last one!

 

[Wallenda]

Belief in something seems to be a human necessity. The fascists and communists turned their political beliefs into a religion-subsitute. Help them achieve their power, and all sorts of wonderful things will happen! Notice it is always in the future - in an after life or an always distant future. But never fear, the day will arrive!

 

If by 'belief' you mean 'religion' then I'm not so sure it really is a necessity. Organized religion has always been so powerful that it's only now that aetheism/agnosticism is flourishing for the first time on a wide scale. Look at survey results in Europe :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

That's a lot of people -- who seem to be surviving without something they supposedly need. Not most, no, but I bet the line graph from the 1950s til now looks pretty dramatic, and I don't see the trend reversing any time in the next few centuries.

 

In many countries even these days, giving an honest response to a survey like this could be dangerous. And in most countries the social/familial pressure is great enough that it usually stops people even really seriously considering the question.

 

This generation hasn't been dangled any futuristic carrots in return for their non-belief. There haven't been any leaders nudging them towards it. I can only speak for myself, but for most of my life I wasn't sure what I believed, had basically avoided deciding. Finally I admitted it to myself, that it was actually simpler than I was making it out to be, that I really just didn't believe any of it -- not my family's Christian beliefs, and not any other religion's version either. I expect a lot of people came to it pretty much that way or else something like it.

 

But if you meant that humans seem to have a need to believe in a more general sense (which could include believing that Tony Blair was the prime minister of the UK for a decade in the 90's and 00's), I'd say OK that seems to be true. People seem to be more or less predisposed to taking belief a lot further (some people more so, some less so) -- and so you get some who go for the 9/11 conspiracy theories or collect crystals or whatever.

 

I suspect that as education improves, as a general trend religion will tend to look a lot less convincing to more and more people. Aetheism will grow big time in 1st world countries in decades to come, and developing countries will follow at some point down the road. Religions are strongest in the most illiterate countries, not a coincidence I think.

 

[Bangkoktraveler]

Am I correct in saying that the 'end game' in Buddhism is to break the 'death-rebirth' cycle by reaching enlightenment ? Effectively, if all life is suffering then ending that suffering has to be a good thing, right ?

 

While I'm sure there are 'holier-than-thou' Buddhists, [color:red]I have never heard of fundamentalist Buddhists who want to consign non-believers to hell - always prepared to hear otherwise.[/color]Christianity and Islam both have an endless supply of fundamentalists who are happy to do exactly that - the 'chosen few' ideal. As one commentator recently put it, if I blow myself up in a crowded market killing hundreds in the belief that its God's will, I do it in the knowledge that there are only two sets of people at that market - infidels/apostates and true believers : the former were going to hell anyway and the latter will thank me for ensuring that they go straight to Heaven.

 

Effectively, the only way to ensure an end to all this suffering is by the total removal of religion. Hitler tried, Stalin tried and several communist regimes have given it a very good shake, to no avail. Bring on the comet.

 

 

 

 

Some Buddhist in modern times have immolated themselves (set them selves on fire) very similary to the Hindu practise of sati.

 

As far as going to hell: If you go to a Buddhist temple that has drawings of the various heavens and hells; one place you don't want to go is the lower and/or lowest hell.

[Gadfly]

so you get some who go for the 9/11 conspiracy theories or collect crystals or whatever.

 

I suspect that as education improves, as a general trend religion will tend to look a lot less convincing to more and more people. Atheism will grow big time in 1st world countries in decades to come, and developing countries will follow at some point down the road. Religions are strongest in the most illiterate countries, not a coincidence I think.

 

Agree. Bringing this back to Thailand and what happened in Chiang Mai, I also suspect that the official propaganda used by Thai officials to spin and deflect attention will become less effective, as the Thai population becomes more educated.

 

As I see it and hear it in the office sometimes, many wealthy and educated Thais don't want to ranks of educated Thais to increase. In a perverse way, I think foreigners benefit from this. An educated foreigner who thinks and speaks critically about Thailand, can be dealt with. He can be deported; a thousands of other punishments and incentives can be used to keep in mind. Not so with Thais.

 

But I think this is starting to change, and the Thai upper class is flailing against this change. The internet and easy access to information is changing the terrain. The Thai system is very rigid, and it doesn't cope well with challenging questions or a more educated population.

 

Recall what happened last year around this time? I think we're going to see more cracks in the system in the years to come.

[Flashermac]

 

 

<< Some Buddhist in modern times have immolated themselves (set them selves on fire) very similary to the Hindu practise of sati. >>

 

 

Those have been Mahayana Buddhists, not Theravada. Theravada is closer to the Buddha's actual teachings. Mahayana has boddisatvas and has almost turned the Buddha into a deity. (Tibetan Buddhists even fought wars for power against each other! )

 

Thee Theravada Buddhist viewpoint is one of - "This is what we believe. Accepted it or not, it is up to you." And even if you do fark up and get sent to hell, it will not be forever as in the Judeo-Christian and Islam religions.