Plainsdrifter Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 When hate exists it is very difficult to accept something and move on with your life. What happens is that a grudge is nursed and kept alive for generations. Life is too short for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Stalin completely redrew the map of Central Europe, with millions of people being uprooted and losing all they had. When I was a small child I remember refugee children in my school. The term then was DP - displaced persons. But Europe got over it and no one is demanding their lost homes and lands back. Unfortunately, the Middle East is trapped in a religious war. They are not willing to forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCorinthian Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 When hate exists it is very difficult to accept something and move on with your life. What happens is that a grudge is nursed and kept alive for generations. Life is too short for that. Quoted for truth! You can even see it in Hamas run tv. Teaching the kids to hate the jewish monster. Makes me sick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unit731 Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 "Abstract The governments of the Czech Republic and Nicaragua during their Communist and Marxist-Leninist regimes, respectively, took over a vast amount of private property, usually with very little or no compensation paid. The post-Communist governments in these countries addressed the claims of the former owners of confiscated properties. Each country encountered problems when dealing with property claims. However, of the two countries, the Czech Republic was by far more successful in resolving claims. Nicaragua experienced numerous grave troubles and many claimants were dissatisfied with the outcomes of their claims. These two case studies provide lessons for a future Cuba that may address the private property confiscations of its current Communist regime." LINK I still recommend the purchase of pristine sea side properties in Cuba at low Communist prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted December 30, 2012 Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 Don't know what the fuss is all about between the Israelies and Palestinians. Jews were exiled thousands of years ago by invaders-the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and who knows who else. They were taken out of their homeland as slaves in chains to the capitals of the invaders. The "Palestinians" took over their homes and farms when the Jews went into exile. 2,000 years later the Jews are back from all over the globe and are claiming their homes back. It's not like the Jews are invading a new country like Japan, China or even Thailand and settling on the lands its inhabitants. They are simply coming back to their ancestoral land and settling in their historical homes. More power to them if they can hold on to it. PD and FM, Your interpretation of history is either extremely naive or I suspect you are Zionists with the hidden agenda of muddying the waters with your usual tripe. Next you’re going to tell me that God led his chosen people to a land of milk and honey completely devoid of native inhabitants...an empty land in need of people for a people in need of a land. Utter bollocks! Even Golda Meir would have disagreed with you; she claimed that Palestinians didn’t even exist at all.(Washington Post 1969)..just as the British claimed Australia was terra nullius in 1900. What a ridiculous disgusting pretext on which to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian people and steal their land..an excuse based on a book of popular fiction and hearing voices from imaginary supernatural friends. Please!.... this is almost 2013! Jews are a religion not a race. It stands out like dogs’ balls: Jews are every shade of ethnicity from jet black Ethiopians to blonde haired blue eyed Russians....the obvious result of multiple interbreeding and religious conversions. Unbelievably just last week the latest group are Indians the Bnei Menashe.from the far northeast of India http://www.bbc.co.uk...-20841382...the supposedly Lost Tribe of Israel...Plainsdrifter would have us believe the fairy tale that they still have the keys to their ancestral homes that the Romans expelled them from 2,000 years ago. While actually they are cynically being used to populate squatter camps in the West Bank on stolen Palestinian land. Whereas there are many Palestinian refugees who really do have the keys to the homes in Haifa they and their ancestors lived in for centuries, that they were terrorized into leaving in 1948 and 1967. I’m sure Palestinians have more Middle Eastern DNA in their genes than Jewish immigrants. Just look at them! At least the Jews who emigrated from Iraq had a choice of Iraqi or Israeli citizenship, and there are still Jewish communities today in several Arab countries and Iran even. The Palestinians had no options but to flee the fighting and Jewish terrorist gang massacres as refugees always do in time of conflict, and according to the Geneva Convention and UN Charter allowed to return if they want to when the dust settles. Whereas the Israeli Mossad murdered their own Jewish people in Iraq in order to encourage survivors to emigrate to Israel, by bombing their own synagogues. http://en.wikipedia....aghdad_bombings While Jewish terrorist gangs Lehi Stern and Irgun (some of whose members became Israeli PMs Shamir and Begin who could never visit UK because they were wanted for murdering British soldiers!) were busy committing massacres against Palestinian old men, women, and children http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lehi_(group) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun in such places amongst hundreds as... http://en.wikipedia....Yassin_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura And get this... this whole scenario was envisaged by Israel’s founding father PM Ben Gurion. In a letter to his son ...before World War 2, before the Holocaust, before partition, before the state of Israel... In a letter to his son Amos he wrote in 1937 that a Jewish state in part of Palestine was "not the end, but only the beginning." It would give a "powerful boost to our historic efforts to redeem the country in its entirety". He wrote that he had "no doubt that our army will be among the world's outstanding—and so I am certain that we won't be constrained from settling in the rest of the country, either by mutual agreement and understanding with our Arab neighbours, or by some other way.†S. Teveth, 1985, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs, p. 188) http://en.wikipedia....des_before_1948 ..looks like it was Ben Gurion’s “by some other way†that the Israeli terrorist state was indeed established and still is today, as recently in the Palestinian village of Dalmash fighting to survive before Jews from New York, London, Melbourne and now India come to steal the land in the racist state of Israel..simply because they are Jews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43zZtPv3pVU But mai ben rai,....Plainsdrifter and Flashermac’s fanciful rationalisations of one of the biggest cons in history (solely and shamefully aided and abetted by the USA) are all academic armchair musings The bottom line is this... It’s the 21st century now, not 18th century frontier America or Australia. .. the whole world is watching this time! A Palestinian who sees his centuries old family owned home and orchard being bulldozed by an uzi toting Bible wielding Jewish fanatic from New York is quite rightly not going to accept it, as neither you nor I would...nor is the global community and Israel will NEVER live in peace until it makes a JUST settlement with its neighbours. What a daft way to live constantly looking over your shoulder when peace is just a few acres of land swaps away. Personally, I think Palestinians should go the UN and International War Crimes Tribunal way and offer complete passive non violent resistance. Shame Israel and the USA with Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook displays of how Palestinians face daily humiliation, dispossession, apartheid and violence at the hands of their bully boy Israeli masters. The whole Arab world has agreed to recognise Israel 100% in return basically for a fudged deal over Jerusalem and a few land swaps equal in area to the 1967 borders, giving Israel a lot more than partition in 1948. But the greedy Israelis want more. I fear it’s going to be another case in history of too little too late. Either annex the West Bank and Gaza and grant full citizenship to Palestinians, or agree soon to a 2 state solution, before someone gets hold of a dirty bomb using Syrian stockpiled chemical weapons and lets loose Armageddon. Time is not on Israel’s side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plainsdrifter Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Very good post Robaus, very detailed if a bit one-sided. Unfortunately, there doesn't exist on this planet a political power than can right all the wrongs of history. All nations involved here have interests that proclude them from engaging in the re-arrangements you call for. During the end of Clinton's second term an effort was made to create the two nation state solution you speak of, unfortunately for the Palestinians' interests, Arafat chose to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so to speak. Clinton's motivation and interests for his efforts were not altruistic rather he wanted to change his legacy from impeachment to peacemaker. Unfortunately for the conflict, his efforts, rather than his accomplishments, are what is remembered. Subsequent Palestinian and Israeli leaders could not, by themselves, forge a peace, remember who followed Clinton in the WH and the wars he was busy with. In my defense you have to admit that I did not refer to a god that did anything for the ancient jews in my previous post. If this mythical power was to set about undoing all the injustices of the past where people were uprooted from their homelands and lost their political independence, where would he begin, where would he go. Would he undo the United States and present the USA to its original inhabitants? Would he uproot every last Han Chinese from Tibet and present the Tibetans a major part of modern China's land mass? I bet the Chinese would cooperate with that. Just look to what length they now go to protect their claims on a couple of tiny islands in the South China Sea. All of that is unlikely to happen. What will probably happen is that the Palestinians will learn to live next to a stronger Israel in a hot peace, no war but no peace either. All the Arab Middle East, minus the Palestenians, will go on developing with their Spring. The USA, with so much energy developing in its own back yard, will think less and less of the Middle East as an interest to protect and get involved in. Obama will not even pay lip service to peace in his second term, rather he will concentrate on the economy, gun control and maybe immigration reform. The 21st Century, A Brave New World, glad I will not be alive to see it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Very good post Robaus, very detailed if a bit one-sided. Unfortunately, there doesn't exist on this planet a political power than can right all the wrongs of history. All nations involved here have interests that proclude them from engaging in the re-arrangements you call for. During the end of Clinton's second term an effort was made to create the two nation state solution you speak of, unfortunately for the Palestinians' interests, Arafat chose to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so to speak. Clinton's motivation and interests for his efforts were not altruistic rather he wanted to change his legacy from impeachment to peacemaker. Unfortunately for the conflict, his efforts, rather than his accomplishments, are what is remembered. Subsequent Palestinian and Israeli leaders could not, by themselves, forge a peace, remember who followed Clinton in the WH and the wars he was busy with. In my defense you have to admit that I did not refer to a god that did anything for the ancient jews in my previous post. If this mythical power was to set about undoing all the injustices of the past where people were uprooted from their homelands and lost their political independence, where would he begin, where would he go. Would he undo the United States and present the USA to its original inhabitants? Would he uproot every last Han Chinese from Tibet and present the Tibetans a major part of modern China's land mass? I bet the Chinese would cooperate with that. Just look to what length they now go to protect their claims on a couple of tiny islands in the South China Sea. All of that is unlikely to happen. What will probably happen is that the Palestinians will learn to live next to a stronger Israel in a hot peace, no war but no peace either. All the Arab Middle East, minus the Palestenians, will go on developing with their Spring. The USA, with so much energy developing in its own back yard, will think less and less of the Middle East as an interest to protect and get involved in. Obama will not even pay lip service to peace in his second term, rather he will concentrate on the economy, gun control and maybe immigration reform. The 21st Century, A Brave New World, glad I will not be alive to see it all. Yes, very sad indeed that the Palestinians and Israelis came so close to an agreement at Camp David in 2000. I don’t care what Clinton’s motives were. Good luck for trying. If he hadn’t been called away to a G7? meeting he might have been able to cajole both sides some more. I disagree that the conflict is insoluble. It’s well worth reading http://en.wikipedia....mp_David_Summit to see how minor the differences really are... a few land swaps, a token segment of East Jerusalem for the Pals, and a token return of a few geriatric Pal refugees if they prefer that to $$ compensation. In an excellent PBS? documentary whose title eludes me, I have on DVD in my condo in Pattaya. (I’m o/s at the moment). I was impressed by how much Israeli PM Ehud Barak was willing to concede. However, both he and Arafat were prima donnas, petrified what their respective electorates would think of them. Barak went missing at one point because he didn’t want to negotiate further, and so did Arafat. With another Israeli election looming the war criminal Ariel Sharon took a provocative walk on Temple Mount with 1,000 bodyguards ...not that he was expecting any trouble..ho ho ho...riots ensued, Likud won the next election and Israel and the USA veered to the right for the next decade. >>Would he undo the United States and present the USA to its original inhabitants? ..I agree , completely impractical after 400 years to return land to previous inhabitants, yet you claim that’s it’s somehow completely justifiable to allow Jews to occupy land vacated 2,000 years ago, notwithstanding the fact that the Palestinians are more Semitic than the immigrant American, British, Australian and Indian Jews. 2000 years, 400 years...but 60 years is the same lifetime for many Palestinians...big difference. >>What will probably happen is that the Palestinians will learn to live next to a stronger Israel in a hot peace, no war but no peace either ...I’m curious how you envisage this happening If Israel unilaterally declares a new border incorporating land it has stolen in the West Bank, it will be vetoed in the UN (not by US of course!). And because it’s unjust, the Pals won’t accept it. The pariah state Israel will be isolated politically and economically further. Pals could pursue matters through UN, EU, ICC leading to sanctions as happened with S Africa. Israeli Arabs eventually outbreed Jews inside Israel. Israel annexes whole West Bank but refuses to grant equal citizenship rights to Pals. Israel becomes even more of an apartheid state generating huge international backlash...go to #1 Israel does grant citizenship to Pals...go to #2 Alternative for some extremist Pal elements beyond the control of PA busy negotiating option 1, is to escalate the violence internationally like the IRA did with UK... $300 car bombs that cause $2billion worth of damage in every US city; ex IDF on gap years after service targeted in all the well known backpacker centres; Israeli friendly businesses and sponsors attacked worldwide. Some terrorist group gets hold of a dirty WMD from Assad’s chemical stockpile when Syria disintegrates and lets loose Armageddon in Tel Aviv. Now wouldn’t an agreed fair 2 state solution be much nicer after a few land swaps equal in area to 1967 borders allowing Israel to keep some of its larger settlements to live in peace recognised by all your Arab neighbours, trade with them, exchange ambassadors, go on holiday there, get invited to join the EU, allow your teenagers to enjoy the best years of their lives than be brutalized in 3 years of military service. I don’t share your pessimism, PD. I hope Israel will eventually see sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALHOLK Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I don’t share your pessimism, PD. I hope Israel will eventually see sense. I hope you're right but I think you do underestimate the religeous nutters. ALHOLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unit731 Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 "Did food prices cause the Arab Spring? Will food and water be at the core of future protests against fundamental inequities in the world? This study, released this month by the New England Complex Systems Institute, certainly suggests so. Examining data from 1990 to the present, researchers Marco Lagi, Karla Bertrand, and Yaneer Bar-Yam have found a striking correlation between global food prices and numerous uprisings in North Africa and the Middle East. This year’s revolutions in Egypt and Libya are the most recent examples of such conflicts, the researchers warn, but they certainly won’t be the last. Their essential theory is fundamentally simple, and can be summarized as follows: Humans count on governments to maintain a baseline level of security for themselves and their families. Adequate, accessible food supply is one component of security, and likewise, an effective food infrastructure is generally regarded as a government responsibility. Poor countries, which historically relied upon subsistence agriculture, are, as a result of globalization, increasingly dependent on world-girdling supply chains. As long as food is coming in through international trade, and is affordable, many populations will tolerate even the most despotic of dictators. However, when prices get too high, often as a consequence of the global marketplace, an oppressed population can quickly move toward insurgency." LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCorinthian Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 "Did food prices cause the Arab Spring? Will food and water be at the core of future protests against fundamental inequities in the world? "A society is only three meals away from anarchy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.