spirit_of_town_hall Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Thats right the King pardoned that intellectual guy, some professor I think who referred to him as skipper with reference to the King piloting the royal vessel. STH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickman Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Zane, Thanks for your kind words about my website. Yes, you are quit correct in saying that when th site first went online, it was quite positive about the whole Thailand naughty nightlife industry. And I'll be the first to admit that I was very naive when I first put the site online. "You also make prostitution in Thailand sound like prostitution everywhere and it certainly is not." And you know what, this is what I used to think too. But when you start to scratch below the surface, you find a lot of msiery, a lot of sadness, and a lot of really nasty shit going on. Ask almost anyone who A) speaks GOOD Thai, has a conscience and C) has spent a lot of time in the bars, and I'm sure they will reach similar conclusions to what I stated in my previous post. Yes, the girls may treat customers better than prostitutes do I nthe West - in fact they may be downright lovely in some cases, but let's not mask the fact that there really is some bad shit gonig on, all fuelled by the prostitution industry. I do not have any answers...but I do know that there is some bad shit going on that isn't immediately evident if you are a non Thai speaker. Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALHOLK Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Hi! I think you're overreacting. I don't know if it was his point but it is a point that they are targeting farangs. How many Chinese or Japanese pedophiles have been nicked in Pattaya, none to my knowledge. Just like any corrupt politicians the government is seeing to their welfare rather than the public welfare. Yes there is a lot of shit going down behind the sceene. One doesn't have to be fluent in Thai to know that Sticky. As you already know I have been coming to Thailand for many years and seen quite alot of shit. I also know tha most of the shit has no connections to farangs whatsoever. What about 13 year old girls in upcountry brothels. Someone mentioned that it is their country and they can make any rules they want. The problem is that they have differen rules for us and them. The bottom line is if the want our money they they will have to adapt their rules to suit us or we will go elsewhere. regards ALHOLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanemay Posted June 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 There are a couple of general references in the responses to "closing Pattaya down." I am not so paranoid as to see that as a possibility. For all the good, the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, this is an extremely popular and ever-growing destination for Thais as well as foreign tourists. ******** Mr. Stickman writes: "but let's not mask the fact that there really is some bad shit going on, all fueled by the prostitution industry." And Mr.. Fly writes: "i see in your posts a constant whitewashing of the prostitution, the way how you describe the way how these girls enjoy doing what they are doing. that basically makes me cringe..." I can only say that I only see the Thai girl with farang side of prostitution, not the Thai-with-Thai which I heard is more of a brothel situation where the girls cannot choose their customers and the men can be as unkind as they wish. I have a lot of personal experience with girls in Pattaya and BKK. I know girls that are happy and thrive as freelancers and bar girls and I know girls who are unsuited to the work, feel what they are doing is wrong, don't like men, etc. Some are miserable and go into decline. Some hold their own in spite of the unhappy situation. Personally I look for happy freelancers who seem to be suited to the work. There are girls in every society who would love to be whores, who like being wicked, and God forbid, like sex. Some who would love to be, become, and enjoy. In Thailand, I do not see the underbelly of prostitution. On a one-to-one basis I treat the girls nicely, I pay them better than some, worse than others, and when I come back they are always happy to see me. Or my money... ******** Now, Mr.. Fly, You have a lovely style in which you strongly disagree with me and really don't respect my point of view, but at the same time make your comments and criticisms without flaming. I appreciate and admire you method. You write: "I personally am embarrassed to be a westerner whenever i am there. hords of the lowest scum of our parts of the world behaving like wild animals." Very true and I am embarrassed by a lot of people myself. I conduct myself in a mannerly fashion and only associate with men who do the same. I do not go around with my shirt off, or carrying a bottle of beer, or deafening people by revving up a "choppa." I don't smoke, or get drunk. I recycle bottles and cans and I never litter. I speak softly and I respect Thai ladies. I do not treat non-prostitutes like working girls. I study Thai and I have traveled all over the country, not just to tourist spots. I appreciate the good things about the culture. Fly: "lets go to the not so nice realities of pattaya. pattaya is known to harbour more than enough criminals on the run from all over the world. in pattaya mafias from all over are operating freely. violence, massive amount of suicides by both thais and farang, mysterious deaths." This may be true, but it has never impacted me. People kill themselves for good reasons and for stupid reasons - I know a lovely gentlemen who killed himself over a Thai lady. Stupid reason. Fly: "basically, that little paradise embarrasses thailand constantly in the international media." To the extent that this is true, it certainly has nothing to do with me. Prostitution in America embarrasses and threatens certain people, as does abortion or smoking marijuana. Since I am for as much wide open freedom as possible, I disagree with all these folks and see their views as ridiculous. I have a right to my point of view. Fly: "i see you very singlemindely writing about things from your personal viewpoint as a wealthy western male only, but you should start forgetting about yourself sometime and try to put yourself into the shoes of the people here in thailand, try to see things from their viewpoint. but that might very possibly mean to look at yourself in a critical way. can you do that?" Well, I am sure I not rich, but I would love to be and consider myself well suited to be. Aside from that, you have me "to a T." I don't come to Thailand to forget myself my friend or to save the world. I come to Thailand to enjoy myself. I have reasonable standards for the way I treat other people and I am especially good to women. Generally they like me and I like them. I see myself as doing what I am supposed to be doing in the context of Pattaya. Girls come from all over to make good money here. More come every day. I bring what money I have and give it to them. Like so many, many older men, at age 56 I see my time for such pleasures as limited and want to enjoy them now as much as I can. Some people think this is wrong and they are welcome to their point of view. Mine is: Selfish, yes. Bad, no. Best regards, Zane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 i think everybody here knows how i think about politicians in thailand and their fast pseudo solutions, but it is against the rules of the board to discuss that here. unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 i don't think that you are a bad person, or even one of the guys i have mentioned i was embarrassed about in pattaya. i see you as very naiv concerning the nightlife scene, which is not a crime. i was very naiv about it once too. but the longer i have lived here and the more thai i speak the more cracks appeared in the fassade of the happy girls in the wild nightlife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 You really don't have to speak Thai to see the pain in the nightlife scene. I also think it is a little extreme to say that the entire scene is painful for the participants. Honestly, there is a percentage of women that enjoy the occupation of prostitution, in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. I am not referring to the forced prostitution that is violent and the equivalent of slavery. I am talking abut voluntary prostitution where women choose to participate. For example look at the amount of prostitution going on in the States over the internet. There are thousands of women who advertise their wares on the web. There is no organized crime element with pimps, brothels and such. These are women who freelance and choose their clientele. Prostitution is negative IMO when you criminalize it and you force it underground. There are no laws to protect the women which leaves them open to abuses by pimps, mafia, crooked police and other predators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 but let's not mask the fact that there really is some bad shit gonig on, all fuelled by the prostitution industry. ------------------------------------- yes, yes, yes! So why since the Delphi days of this board, the "prostitution is just another career choice" opinions are left unchallenged for the most part, and to my own opinion, then validated constantly. I can go back to all the arguments i had about it, and it's always "free choice", "they don't have to", "all they need is a 4000b dayjob every month", "fine since college girls do it too", "us poor farang has to fend off BG greed", "I don't like/choose my job back home too, so what?", "they're great businesswomen..", etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 of course i am not saying that the entire scene is painful for all participants, that would be a bit extreme indeed and would show complete lack of knowledge. the point i try to make is basically that it is not as rosy as some people see it, and there are a lot wider implications than just the scenery. a very complicated topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2002 Report Share Posted June 25, 2002 "you are very american here. you take everything at face value" Fly, Generally I find your posts to be interesting and well informed, and I often agree with your points. However I have to take issue with the above statement, which is just as simplistic and predjudicial as the attitudes you often decry. There are many Americans who are sophisticated, worldly, culturally sensitive, and aware of currents below the surface in Thailand and elsewhere. Perhaps this is ze fly in ze ointment that mars your otherwise clear view. J22J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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