Wierd Night in Pattaya

[zanemay]

Soongmak...

 

Thinking it over, I have a bit more to say to you.

 

I know that you are an old darling of the Board, friends with KS and other members who meet regularly. I used to follow your posts and even did a "pub crawl" based on them. This is all well and good.

 

However, there is a clear rule against flaming. Flaming is when you set aside the subject and go directly and personally after the poster.

 

"You should come to holland someday. With a little luck you can score a prostitutes desperate for a heroin shot for as low as 5 euro a pop. You would love it."

 

Even as an "old darling of the Board" you are not above this guideline, are you?

 

Want to discuss the subject at hand? I would be happy to hear it. But stifle the flames.

 

Zane

[spirit_of_town_hall]

Why should it bother you what another chap decides to pay, would you be as offensive and churlish if someone got a very good price on a kitchen, or got a good deal on a new gear box.

 

As long as someone clearly stated what they will pay and the other person agrees thats fair, very fair. A lot of BG's etc get a good deal by disappearing early on a LT assignment, and a lot of Farangs are too soft hearted and still give them the LT fee.

 

What is your issue with someone being disciplined with money, by being firm but fare?

 

STH

[soongmak]

You said this about payments ?You do not make the rules, nobody does.? So what standards are you judging Zanemay by and finding his payment level too low?

I just reread another thread by Zanemay (I fight for YOUR Baht!) and I read a great post by TEDBKK. He can say it as lot better than me:"there's something mildly off-putting about people who get excited about consistently extracting the maximum from people doing degrading work, while bestowing upon them the absolute minimum reward that can possibly be gotten away with."

I agree with this word-for-word. It is not so much about the amount of money he pays, but the pleasure he derives from paying as little as possible. Very egocentric, but if ít takes that to make a person happy...

 

There are many more points you make that don?t bear close scrutiny but it seems unfair to the original poster to list them all and as it?s not my intention to turn this thread into flame war I?m not going to list them.

So basically you're saying I am making no sense without telling me where I do not make any sense. Wow, that makes a lot of sense

 

Might I suggest that it?s time for you to bow out of this thread before you do any more damage. Stumpdog above says agree to disagree but you can?t seem to live with that and have to have the last word.

If people address me, I think it's only polite to answer!

 

Cheers,

 

soongmak

 

 

 

 

 

[sinsin2]

Ignore him.

[soongmak]

Zanemay,

 

I really don't think I was flaming you, so sorry still no apologies from me. Since you feel I was flaming you, I think I owe it to you to elaborate.

 

Here's my quote again: "You should come to holland someday. With a little luck you can score a prostitutes desperate for a heroin shot for as low as 5 euro a pop. You would love it." Now why would I say that? Simply because all your posts seem to revolve about how much (better:little) you paid. The less you pay, the more you like it. You are here To Fight For Your Baht!

 

Like you say: You need balls to negotiate. I just wonder how far you are willing to go. You said in another thread that 2 am is a good time to negotiate. So why not take advantage of someones drug addiction? Is it really that far from taking advantage of the fact that a BG has to pay the rent and that she doesn't have a customer to do so? I am just curious how far you want to take your negotiations.

 

Cheers,

 

soongmak

 

[Tiger Moth]

Please consider this suggestion.

 

A good alternative to being critical and argumentative is to simply state your own position. For example, you could state something along the lines of: "I always try to give reasonable compensation, which I believe to be at least 1000 baht for LT. I do not believe in giving less even if the BG would accept less." In this way, you get your opinion consideration as an alternative to that given by the person who made the original post.

 

Two benefits to this approach:

1) your opinion is clearly stated and availabe within the post

2) the originial post doesn't disappear having been replaced by an argument

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

Soongmaak, drop it!

 

Just as Zanemay has no right to tell you how much you should pay, so do you not have that right either.

 

As long as both parties were happy then who really cares what was paid.

 

So, just let it go.

 

Sanuk!

 

[Guest]

Actually, while many would find Zanemay's obsession with money somewhat pathetic, I find reading about his antics rather amusing. One of the funniest TV programs I've seen recently was a documentary about Britains meanest men. One guy brings an empty flask to work every morning so that he can bring hot water home at night - thus saving on his electricity bill!

No, its his criticism of normal people that pisses me off. There's no call for that. After my first trip report last year, he criticised me for getiing a taxi rather than a train/bus! Hardly called for. Most of us get our kicks from having fun and sex with the girls. It is obvious from his posts that Zanemay gets his biggest thrill from paying the girls as little as possible. No harm in that as long as they have agreed to the price beforehand and I'm not criticising him for that.

[Guest]

you are right, there definately is something amusing about our own one baht playboy in pattaya.

[zanemay]

"It is obvious from his posts that Zanemay gets his biggest thrill from paying the girls as little as possible."

 

Not true at all, but there will always be those who want to interpret me that way. I enjoy bargaining more than I enjoy saying "Yes" to anything they ask for. And I didn't mean to criticize you for taking a taxi while I take the Airport bus. In a lot of the things I write I am trying to show that there less expensive alternatives. Reading the posts on this board, I don't think a newbie would ever know there was a clean, efficient and inexpensive Airport bus to Sukhumvit.

 

And that remark about the Brit who brings home hot water to save on electricity!! Oh, that was a killer!! I love it.

 

I am happy to be controversial, but there are those that have said that my old saw is getting boring. Don't want to be boring so the time has come for a change until someone sets me off again. At the moment, there is still a bit of a debate going on.

 

Responding to Soongmak:

 

1) [This is something I wrote in reference to a lady I gave 400 baht for a LT she switched to ST. I was very unhappy about it.]

 

Zane: "I thought I was very jai dee. I should have given her 200 baht."

 

Soongmak: "...you?re experienced enough to have heard it all before. Minimum wage for people working in Bangkok and the 3 neibouring provinces was 162 baht a day, back in ?98. Sending her on her way with 200 bhat means giving her about minimum wage. I know that many people do unpleasant work for bad pay, but it is my firm believe that somebody who sucks cock deserves at least decent compensation for that. 400 bhat is still way too cheap, even in Pattaya."

 

ST is one or two hours! Not the 8, 10, or 12 hour work day that is so typical in Thailand. She will go out and look for more guys. If you can't use labor wages as some sort of a reference, what can you use? Why should you use the opinion of a Westerner based on wages in Western countries or what they would have to pay for Western prostitutes? Those standards have no valididity here in the same way comparing taxi fares makes no sense.

 

2) Soongmak: "I read a great post by TEDBKK. He can say it as lot better than me: 'there's something mildly off-putting about people who get excited about consistently extracting the maximum from people doing degrading work.'"

 

Here's a fundamental split in our outlooks. I imagine this stems from different upbringing and sexual histories.

 

I don't think prostitution is "degrading" and if you guys do, and being such nice sympathetic fellows, I wonder how you can go with these girls. No matter what you are paying them, you are doing something that you think is degrading for them. You can't compensate someone for degrading them.

 

I come from an Italian American family that wholeheartedly approved of love, romance and sex. Life without all of those life would hardly be worth living. I was encouraged to like girls, appreciate the warmth, softness and love that they offered.

 

Sex was good thing then. And now, I don't have to cover up what I am doing like so many other guys. This is why I can write straightforward trip reports with graphic sex. Sex is not embarrassing, shameful or degrading.

 

My older sister, who is my only real family now, sees me off to LOS with, "I know you're not going to be good, so be careful." I have a girlfriend in America who knows what I do and is always asking for detailed reports. They know the difference between cold American and European prostitutes and the GF experience I have here. They have known me with women for a long time. They know I love women and treat them well. Obviously there are ways to treat girls well that don't involve money.

 

3) I didn't have sex until I was a senior in high school and I didn't really get into it until my third year of college about 40 years ago. When I did, we quickly got into oral sex. The girl became my wife and partner for about 20 years and BBBJ was my daily fair. This was an act of love. After splitting from my wife, I had about a dozen great girlfriends over the years. They all gave me head, because they loved sex and they loved me. There was no money or support changing hands. I had one GF who made $125,000 a year who made sure she sucked my dick every night.

 

From my point of view there is nothing fundamentally bad or degrading about any kind of sex between consenting adults. Degradation is in the eye of the beholder who then imposes it on what they are doing.

 

Certainly some girls can feel degraded by being prostitutes and it is important that societies project disapproval to promote marriage and family. But it's not automatic that girls have qualms about prostitution any more than it is automatic that men have to feel bad about going with them.

 

On the other hand if they aren't happy in their work, it shows in different ways. Halfhearted performance, hostility, flagrant gold digging. When these Thai ladies pack their bags in Surin or Khon Khaen or Nong Kai and head for the tourist centers, the smart ones know that they are entering an entertainment business. If they go to work in a well-managed bar, they will be told to smile, entertain and make the men feel good. If they freelance, they need to know that they are independent contractors in a very competitive business. If they are not entertaining, then they won't be around long. If I go with a girl that has hang ups or a chip on her shoulder, it's no fun. It only happens once.

 

I don't think sex is degrading for the girls I know. And while I love the simile that for most of them it is an act with all of the emotional involvement of "making toast," I certainly look for ones who put a lot more into it than that.

 

What is definitely degrading for them is being passed over night after night as customers go with other girls. That is the hardest thing about what these girls do. There is only so much of that they can take and then they have to quit.

 

I have always been a little offbeat about what attracts me to a woman so I end up taking girls that other guys pass over because of age, looks or shyness stemming from not being able to speak any English. I am handing over between 35,000 and 40,000 a month, every month, to them. They have traveled a long way to come here to work. I give them work.

 

Oh...and for the record...I have never made any association between chatting a girl up about a price and the fact that she may have to pay rent. I have seen that brought up twice by other people. I never thought of it. I HAVE paid rent for GFs four times, but never used it as a bargaining chip.