Bar Girls-Good/Bad? Email Response - Edited

[Guest]

Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,

Is the immediate jewel of their souls:

Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;

'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;

But he that filches from me my good name

Robs me of that which not enriches him

And makes me poor indeed.

William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Othello", Act 3 scene 3

 

I sent the following email in response to an article on Stickman's site about the good 'bar girl/bad bar girl' debate and potential relationships with them. The ?bar girls are not good wife material? guy, if I can characterize him as such (Harlequin) suggested I make my opinions known in public to see what reaction I would get.

 

I have now (some 50 views after the original) edited-out the email exchange between Harlequin and myself, as I think it was wrong of me to post his private emails here without his express permission to do so. He suggested I post my 'opinions,' which are clearly contained in my email (below). I believe his opinions are clearly expressed in his article. Thankfully my edits shorten this post considerably.

 

If he chooses to publically respond in this thread, that his entirely his choice; I shouldn't presume to post his emails to me. For posting his private emails to me to this board, I do sincerely apologize to him.

 

At any rate, The article won?t be copied here because of possible copyright concerns, but interested readers can read it at:

 

?Rolling the Dice Against Long Odds?

 

by Harlequin on Stickman?s Board

 

(www.stickmanbangkok.com) in the Readers Submissions. It is dated sometime in Jan 2003 (so its near the bottom of the screen since the articles are by date).

 

Here is my slightly modified email response to the article (and a related article by JJ, who did not provide an email address)

 

________________________

 

Stickman

Cc: Harlequin

 

I usually don't visit your website but did so as someone on a Board I belong to posted a link to the 'Caveman's Point of View ...' about the Thai economy and investing there. (I might note that the ?Cavemen? author should check his facts out about investment in Thailand before posting - huge inflows over the past 15 years. Nonetheless, this is indicative of a point I propose below about your site ? many dilettantes.)

 

Upon reading that article, I browsed the Subject postings (by Harlequin and JJ, respectively) and felt inclined to comment as I feel that Harlequin is, like much of your site's postings about the girls/nightlife, misinformed and shallow.

 

Indeed, that is one of the reasons I rarely visit your site. I would guess that many of the articles are written by people with only a short time in Thailand, say 0-5 years. Further, I suspect that many of these people are NOT active participants in the bar girl/night life scene. Rather, they choose to 'observe from afar' so to speak; you (Stickman) follow that tack, I believe.

 

I would classify many of these guys as dilettantes, and suggest that JJ's comments (author of the 'Another Perspective' piece) reflects more insights/perspective after having been in Thailand on/off since 1984.

 

As for myself, I've been in SE Asia since 1983, with over 6 years spent in Thailand in the mid-80s. That doesn't make anything I say right (or wrong); ITS ALL IMHO. Indeed, if I can say I've learned anything, its that there are very few universal truths and, bottom line, to each his own.

 

Now, after that mouthful of a preamble, on to my comments. First the 'Rolling the Dice' article, to which you replied "Amen - GREAT stuff."

 

Harlequin claims the 'Another Perspective' title is accurate, and then goes on to say

 

?..it is contrary to what most Western expats and frequent tourists would say about relationships with prostitutes in Thailand.?

 

Throwaway statements of opinion such as this, masquerading as fact, don't lend anything to the debate. Harlequin's statment is based on what information/statistics ? the author?s perception, a ouiji board, 'I think,' or what? I'd sure like to see some data on this one.

 

I note that Harlequin makes frequent use of the word ?prostitute? as if it is something difficult to say. (?the stories we read on the Internet about failed relationships are relatively balanced documentaries about how the author met the prostitute,?) The women in the relationship is not a human, a woman, a girl, a friend, a wife, a lover, but a ?prostitute.? There is clearly something wrong here with Harlequin ? certainly some psychological difficulty dealing with a ?prostitute? which I would suggest is based on vestiges of a religious upbringing. But what do I know? I?m no Freud.

 

I would like to see his/her definition of prostitute. Or indeed, Stickman?s. Is it a woman who sells sex for money? In what time frame, in what form is the payment, what are the boundaries, etc? I suspect that will be difficult to define and limit it to bar or water trade girls in ANY country. Ask yourself how women in any country of the world would choose, without prejudice, between a multimillionaire lawyer/doctor/other and a garbage collector or bricklayer? Would a woman who chose the millionaire on the basis of his money be a ?prostitute,? and if not why not?

 

Continuing with my review, FWIW:

 

?So, aside from dealing with the burden of having to take care of the girl's family, the farang man has to try build a lasting relationship with someone who is an emotional wreck. Sounds like an uphill battle me. ?

 

I suspect Harlequin is also not a Freud, but nonetheless he has diagnosed the girl as an ?emotional wreck?. To say that the girls are an ?emotional wreck? downplays the exceptional ability of the Thais to adapt and accept their fate (one of the many pluses of Buddhism).

 

And now to my favorite comment:

 

?I will give you my take on the situation: whatever a prostitute's background, what they have is a fundamental weakness of character. We are all faced with temptations in life; the strong resist, the weak succumb.?

 

Jerry Falwell (sp?) could not have said it better. ?Weakness of character? my ass. No job, no education, 1-2 kids in the ban, husband ran away, no virginity: what future and how to feed the kids and mama? And a rich, long Thai tradition of girls in the water trade. Come down off your fucking high horse, Harlequin. Like to see you trade places with one of these Thai girls with all of her education, bright future and willingness to accept a job at Robinsons for B4000/month. Dilettante. Get real and give this some serious thought.

 

Continuing

 

?they chose the harder road in life, one with dignity and honour.?

 

Dignity and honour come from within, from strength of character ? how you behave and treat others and how you honor commitments to family and friends, among other things. If I think that a girl in Robinsons has ?dignity and honour? and one in Hollywood does not because of where they are working, then I am shallow indeed. Shame on me. Sure there are bad bar girls, and probably a higher % of the bar girls are ?bad? relative to the Robinsons girls, but there are bad girls in ALL walks of life. The Mercedes-wielding Colombiana in Houston who RAN OVER her husband ? was she good or bad?

 

And for the final act of the piece:

 

?Many men who visit Thailand get emotionally involved with prostitutes. Some become friends, some develop deeper feelings. This may lead them to feel differently about prostitutes than me, to respect them more than I do. Well, who and what we respect is a very personal decision, everyone is a bit different. But on a practical level, I am convinced that marrying a prostitute is almost always a bad choice, and one that could lead to some seriously negative consequences in their life. If you are such a man, I can only advise you to take your time, really get to know the girl well, do what you need to do to be sure she is in love with you. Test her, hire a private detective if need be, whatever it takes. It could work out, anything can happen in life, but always know you are rolling the dice against VERY long odds in a situation like this.?

 

It appears that Harlequin has never even been a friend to a ?prostitute? yet he claims to know their character, their MO, and what the long-term relationship prospects are with all western men. What a crock. However, I do wholeheartedly agree with Harlequin?s advice about ?take your time, really get to know the girl well, do what you need to do to be sure she is in love with you.? This is excellent, IMO.

 

But then he goes on to say ?hire a private detective if need be? Jesus Fucking Christ ? we got an ex-SS officer posting here (only joking). Get real. Would you also hire a private detective for one of the lovely ?typical woman? to use Harlequin?s terminology. If I have to do that, I am low indeed.

 

What more can I say? The piece has some truths (which by definition is something I agree with!) but a lot of it is tripe. All of this, of course, IMHO.

 

Now, on to JJ?s piece, Another Perspective.

 

Based on my comments about Harlequin?s piece, I guess you?ll realize that I agree with much of what JJ says, but not all:

 

>?Situations are what you make of them. Those that get taken by these Evil Bar Girls are their own victims.?

 

This is certainly true. I?ve known guys who come over to BKK, get their first blow job, and immediately (almost) propose to the girl. What do you expect when the marriage doesn?t work out. Would be the same in the West. Fucking ridiculous.

 

I would not agree that 90% of marriages work out. I?d guess it would be lower, maybe 50%, but all my data is anecdotal. I don?t have the statistics.

 

I also don?t agree that ?the only way for a family to make it is for the young girl to go sell herself into the sex trade.? This isn?t the only way, but it has a long tradition of occurring in Thailand, rightly or wrongly. I don?t think the Thais view it negatively ? the girl is sacrificing herself for the family ? the greater good is served, and the girl gains honor for her sacrifice.

 

Again, don?t know what is right or wrong ? to each his own. If I go with a bar girl and pay her for sex, am I any less guilty than she (if there is any guilt to be shared)? Anyway, I never pay for sex, I simply pay the girls to leave in the morning (just kidding).

 

I agree wholeheartedly with JJ on getting to know them and the difficulty THEY have in getting close to you. Most have been fucked-over so many times, lied to, treated poorly, that they?ve built an emotional wall. Get over the wall, and they?re just people like everyone else.

 

As for 'are these girls different from girls all over the world?' I?d say yes and no. They?re Buddhist for one, so that would bring a different religious/cultural background to bear. They?re taught that family comes first, and the husband as a result may come second (but not always). And probably a thousand other things make them different from typical Westerners.

 

But many basic things make them the same: they want children, they want their children to grow-up and prosper, they want to love/be loved, they want to laugh, they want to eat good food and have a decent place to live, they want their parents to be looked after, etc. Is that any different than ANYONE?

 

We?re all the same, deep down. Its just how we get there that is different.

 

IMHO.

 

MMan

 

[ no name rule on this board !!! - BB ]

[Guest lazyphil]

Amen! ...took me an age to read it though!....people will have their set ideas and wont budge, I know what I know and experience and mostly past caring what others wright on Stickman/Nanaplaza. I feel kind of sorry for dudes who rant about bg's!!...I've gotten to know several posters (you know who you are :D) here who have non-bg wives and are non judgmental on bg'/farang marraige because their content and happy with what they have. IMHO>

[BelgianBoy]

MMan,

 

First of all no names here !!!

 

Secondly, I'm going to leave this thread here open for 1-2 days to see what direction is will go, if it will go any direction at all, because I fail to see who will read this, or who will reply to this silly discussion between 2 people only, discussion that had to stay private IMO !

 

Who wants to get his right ? Not sure any of you will get it, but in any case, do leave the insults home, not allowed on this board !

 

Cheers !

[Guest lazyphil]

<<because I fail to see who will read this, or who will reply to this silly discussion>>

 

 

:dunno: :dunno:

[cardinalblue]

Sorry guy, But anyone who took the time to read the length of this post has way too much time on one's hands.

 

Now is the time to look for a new hobby.....

 

Cardibalblue

[Guest]

Belgian Boy

 

Would you like me to edit out 'S_______'s' name? Or can you do that as moderator? I believe that is the only name I used, and its more a handle than anything else, methinks.

 

As for silly, thats in the eye of the beholder but I think the basis premise (are bar girls bad) is probably one of those questions whose answer is only opinions. The truth is for each of us to decipher.

 

I posted as I simply agreed to his suggestion and let the chips fall where they may. As I said, I've seen this discussion played out many times in the past.

 

If you wish to delete it, mai pen rai.

 

Terserah, dan selamat.

 

 

[Guest lazyphil]

<<Sorry guy, But anyone who took the time to read the length of this post has way too much time on one's hands.

 

Now is the time to look for a new hobby.....>>

 

 

Looks like we all loose perspective cos any of us reading any of this forum (nanaplaza not just this thread I mean) by outsiders would be deemed as an utter waste of time :D

 

 

[Guest]

I'm stuck out in eastern indonesia for the past few days and at 1AM and it gets tiring working 12-16 hours/day. Rather than reading all the time, the boards are an interesting diversion.

 

And I don't like guys trashing bar girls so I gave him a shot. Interesting reaction, but es finado.

 

 

 

 

[BelgianBoy]

MMan,

 

I edited Khun Sanuks' name, he would not have been happy seeing his name here........ then again, NO names at all......

( you as poster can edit your own postings, I as mod can edit all )

 

I used the world silly, cos I doubt that many will read / follow this way too lenghty thread......

 

Delete ? nope, never, no broken rules and no reason to, besides that some interesting points made, I though more about closing it as in locking it.

 

Cheers !

[Guest]

BB

 

The post was far too long, as many noted, and upon reflection, I realised I'd made a mistake by posting Harlequin's replies to me. Therefore I have simply deleted all the emails after my original.

 

Don't know whether the thread will go anywhere, but what the heck, its been interesting to exchange the emails with Harlequin.

 

The email exchange made me think of some of the reasons I have great sympathy for 'les girls'. The great times I've had with them, the poverty I've seen and the things they have to do/endure, their treatment by the locals (more so in Indonesia than in Thailand, I might add), etc. And always, in general, a ready smile and a mai-pen-rai or tidak apa apa attitude. How can you not like that?

 

One complains about the treatment of the barfront girls, getting in your way and trying to drag you into their bar. Who makes them do that? Anybody think they want to be in your face? Not a chance - if they don't do that they'll be looking for a job elsewhere, as the manager/owner will run them off. And then what? You gotta eat. Baby need new shoes.

 

They're just trying to make their way in the world, just like the rest of us. Did they screw up by getting in the water trade? Who knows. But there they are.

 

But enough for now. Let me get back down off my high horse and mosey on.

 

Wa'alihkum salam