rickfarang Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 There is some ambiguity in this. RickF This just in from ThaiVisa.com's newsletter. New immigration rules from July, 2004 Lt-Col. Banpote Kittiweera, Inspector of Chiang Mai Immigration Office. A charming man with a serious message. --PHOTO: CHIANGMAI NEWSImmigration proposals in effect from July, 2004 The following new proposals are due to be made law and put into effect by July next year [2004]. They could have profound effects on foreigners applying for 1 year visas because they run small businesses in Thailand ? and/or those wishing to stay here due to their marriage to a Thai national, or other family links. Here are the proposed measures, with comments from Lt-Col. Banpote Kittiweera of Immigration Police, Chiangmai, to David Hardy on some of the possible effects. In all cases we have used the most direct possible translation of the Thai proposals. A foreign husband wants to look after a Thai wife This is not allowed unless they are fully legally married and the husband has a high income to support the wife. Evidence to submit: marriage certificate, birth certificate, evidence of husband?s financial situation, a letter to show his work status, work permit, proof of the wife?s Thai nationality, record of the relationship, evidence from the husband?s Embassy to prove he was single at the time of marriage. This is not required if the couple have a child with a birth certificate. The foreign husband must have not less than 400,000b in the bank and earnings of at least 40,000b per month. If the officer suspects this is not the case he can check with the bank in case the applicant withdraws almost all the money. This is not allowed. If the foreigner married a Thai national before entering the country the officer will inspect his previous visa stamps and the marriage certificate. If the couple have a marriage certificate and a child but all papers cannot be submitted the officer will interrogate them. If they can be trusted, the foreigner will be given a once-only visa valid for 6 months only. When living together as husband and wife, the officer will check their status every 3 and 6 months. If there is any doubt he will inspect their residence before accepting the application. If the wife leaves Thailand, the officer will interview her relatives and neighbours every 6 months. If the applicant applies in Bangkok and there are not enough inspectors, officers in other branches will assist. A foreigner wants to stay until the end of their life. A foreigner who entered the Kingdom before October 21st, 1998 must be under 60 years of age and must have regular income of not less than 20,000b per month and savings of not less than 200,000b and must submit a bank book with at least 3 months record of savings. If the applicant is under 60 but not under 55 they must have regular income of not less than 50,000b per month and savings of not less than 500,000b and submit a bank book with at least 3 months records. Evidence of income (eg pensions) and evidence of the necessity to stay here permanently must be submitted. In cases where the applicant has only savings, they will be interrogated as to their situation once the savings are finished, how other income will be received and from where. Movement of funds in the bank account will be inspected and evidence must be shown that money is transferred through the bank regularly. A husband with a Thai wife and children who are too young to go to school or mentally or physically disabled is allowed. Not more than one year each application is allowed. A foreigner who entered the Kingdom after October 21st 1998, aged 55 years or over must have the same financial evidence, also 800,000b in the bank, an income of not less than 65,000b per month or income and savings together of not less than 800,000b. A letter from a Thai bank must certify this and a letter from the foreigner?s Embassy or Consulate must confirm the monthly income. Evidence must be shown of the need to stay permanently. Not more than one year each application is allowed. A foreigner who entered the Kingdom since 15th November 2001 and who is 50 years or older must have income as follows: not less than 65,000b per month, at least 800,000b in the bank or income and savings together of that amount. Evidence from a Thai bank and Embassy or Consulate as above, the need to stay permanently as above, also a doctor?s certificate to say that the foreigner does not have any infectious disease according to the Health Ministry details issued on November 14th 1992. Examples include TB, malaria, elephantisis. To look after or be looked after by a Thai national A foreign parent looking after a child who is a Thai national related by blood, or because the parent lives in Thailand. This is usually not allowed unless good reasons and evidence can be shown. Evidence must comprise proof of parenthood by birth certificate, plus records showing that the parent has cared for the child already. A financial statement must be provided showing not less than 400,000b in the bank or earnings of at least 40,000b per month. If the parent is under 50 years of age, he or she must have a job and a work permit. For the first application in a case where the parent does not have a job, he or she will be allowed to stay for only 9 months with a condition that by the next application he or she must be working. Otherwise the person will be asked how they earn a living. The year after, the person must submit evidence of payment of income tax. In a case where the person has only savings in a bank, they will be interrogated as to where the money has come from, what the person will do when it is used up and from where other funds will come. The person?s bank account will be inspected for the movement of funds. A foreign parent who wants to look after an adopted Thai child living in Thailand is not allowed. The officer will inspect the adoptive parent?s bank book for evidence of money transfers from abroad and the applicant must have a letter from their Embassy or Consul certifying this income. If the parent wishes to stay to look after a Thai child having divorced the child?s mother, and the child is his responsibility, he will be interrogated. His evidence and that of neighbours will be taken to determine if the couple were really married and if the child is really their own. Blood will be tested to check if parent and child are really related. If this test fails the application will not be allowed. A foreign parent needs to be looked after by a child who is a Thai national living in Thailand. This is allowed if evidence can be shown of the relationship, eg birth certificate and from the child?s evidence. Blood will be tested and if the group is the same, a DNA test will be carried out before the application is allowed. Allowance also depends on the child?s financial situation. The child must show evidence of status, career and income. They must have 400,000b in the bank for one year and earn at least 40,000b per month. Less than this and the application will not be allowed. A foreigner who wishes to look after a father or mother of Thai nationality, living in Thailand. This is allowed, based on the status, career and income of the foreign child. Evidence of relationship, eg birth certificate must be supplied. If the foreigner has children of foreign nationality, only one will be allowed to stay here. If the application is allowed, in the second year the foreign child must submit evidence of tax payments for the first year if they have a job in Thailand. They must have not less than 400,000b in the bank for one year and a monthly income of not less than 40,000b. Under these figures, the application will not be allowed. A foreign child who wants to be looked after by a parent who is a Thai national, living in Thailand. It is not allowed unless the child is under 20 years of age or is studying and there is evidence from schools or colleges, or is physically or mentally disabled and cannot care for themselves. Evidence of the relationship must be shown, eg birth certificate. The foreign parent living in Thailand must fulfil the same financial requirements as above. Q: ?Colonel, these are very stringent financial conditions. Are these proposals for discussion or are they likely to be made law with very few changes?? A: ?The committee has drafted the measures and I would not expect many changes before July at all.? Q: ?Surely there is a risk that if some of these measures become law then many families will be broken up?? A: ?If there are special circumstances, such as the foreigner cannot comply and the Thai national cannot return to the foreigner?s own country with them, they can supply evidence to be considered.? Foreign businessmen The following nationalities must show that they earn the following minimum monthly incomes: Japanese, Americans and Canadians: 60,000b. Europeans and Australians: 50,000b. Koreans, Taiwanese, Hong Kong nationals, nationals of colonies of the UK, British Singaporeans and Malaysians: 45,000b. Indians, nationals of the Middle East, Chinese Indonesians, Philippine nationals: 35,000b Burmese, Laotians, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Africans: 25,000b. Any foreign national in the newspaper business: 20,000b To do business in Thailand, the business must be important and useful to the Thai economy and people, and be highly invested. The foreigners must be executives or experts at what they do. The officer will consider the security of the business, its capital and tax payments and Labour Ministry requirements. Reasons to run the business must be given. In general one foreigner must employ at least 4 Thai staff with the following exceptions. Only one Thai staff may be employed in: international trade, a regional office, a branch of a national company (ie one that serves all of Thailand), an agent acting as middle-man, a consulting company, a joint venture, a foreigner running a business who is a specialist, a regional operation office. However a Juristic person whose business needs more than 1 Thai staff on a daily basis must have a minimum of 20. Evidence required is as follows. Group A The foreigner must provide complete evidence to the officer that, as a Juristic person, investment of not less than 30 million baht is registered, or the business is based on international law such as international trading, a regional office or national company. Group B The foreigner running a business who can show investment as above and exports of over 20 million baht per year or attracting over 5,000 tourists per year or show profit in the previous year of over 10 million baht. If these criteria are met the application will be processed within 14 days. Group C A Juristic person who can show investment as above but with less than 20 million baht?s worth of exports per year or fewer than 5,000 tourists per year or less profit than 10 million baht. Tax payments for the previous 3 months must be shown. If these criteria are met the application will be processed within 30 days. Others If there is more than 1 foreigner in a company and the company cannot appoint more Thai staff as required, the officer will consider the capital, profit, number of shares held by the foreigner(s) and how much export business is done. In the case of a tour business the foreigner must show his ability to attract over 1,500 tourists each year from the government section or Thai Tourism Association or passenger lists and hotel reservations. Income must be based on a table of qualifications. If a foreigner does not have tax payments or work permit yet, the officer will consider giving a 5 month allowance at first until he or she has everything required, then the application may be allowed. In the case of a foreigner submitting tax payments which are not at the same rate as originally informed, but not less than the rate required, he or she must have a letter of explanation. If their income is less than that required, the application will not be allowed. A foreigner applying to work for a company or shop Evidence must be submitted about the foreigner?s position, income and qualifications, the number of staff, type of business and reasons for the employment. The officer must see the work permit or the letter from the Labour Office to say the permit has been applied for; the balance sheet and profit and loss accounts of the company for the previous year or 2, VAT and company tax payments and the tax paid by the Thai staff in the current month. The officer may ask for more paperwork or make an inspection if he suspects that the business does not conform to the application. (In the case of a public limited company, no shareholders list, Thai staff tax payments need be shown, but VAT payments for the whole year must be stated). Future applications must show tax paid in the previous year. Export businesses must provide a letter detailing the exports. Letters certifying the registration, VAT registration and a list of shareholders must be provided. Export businesses must show evidence from the Customs or bank. Q: ?Isn?t this going to have an immediate effect on native teachers of English? If they have to leave in large numbers, will not the teaching of English suffer here?? A: ?No, because most of them are employees rather than proprietors of businesses.? Q: ?Why is the only exception to the minimum salary levels for newspapers?? A: ?Thailand generally benefits from foreign journalists here and many are not well paid.? Q: ?Thank you for that ? but this is all about money, isn?t it?. It seems that money is the only criteria being used to establish whether a foreigner is welcome in Thailand. In fact there are useful, honest members of society here on low budgets and wealthy foreigners who are not of good character.? A: ?Thailand has enough legislation in place to ensure that undesirable people can be made to leave.? Q: ?What can concerned individuals, foreigners and Thais, and companies do to comment on these measures or try to make changes to them?? A: ?I would suggest that they write to The Commissioner for Immigration, Immigration Office, Soi Suanplu, Thanon Satorntai, Bangkok 10121.? Discuss the new Thai Immigration rules at our Forum Interview with Police Lieutenant Colonel Banphot Kittivira, Inspector of Chiang Mai Immigration Office. Q: How long have you been in Immigration? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: I have been at the Chiang Mai Immigration office for 15 years now. After graduating from Prince Royal?s College and then the police academy, I worked as a border patrol police for 7 years and then was transferred here. Q: What does the immigration office do exactly? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: There are around forty of us here in total. Some work in administration, they sit in Building Two (the building on the left as you drive in here) and mainly they liaise with Bangkok and keep us up to date with changes in laws and in regulations and do most of the paperwork in dealing with different departments. Some work with the Chiang Mai airport, they deal mainly with people and vehicles coming into Chiang Mai from abroad. Some work in investigation and the criminal side of things, although we only deal with 40-50 cases per year. And then there is the visa section, of course, which is the team I am in charge of, and which deals the most directly with foreign nationals. Q: As our readership is largely expatriate, can you tell us a bit about the types and groups of expatriates in Chiang Mai. Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: There are around 2,500-3,000 foreign nationals (excluding Burmese) who are registered with us here at immigration. The real figure of expatriates living in Chiang Mai must be at least double this figure. When I first started working here fifteen years ago, I felt that many of the expatriates were mainly men with Thai families. Many were retired; many were missionaries and ajarns at the Universities. Today the number has really increased and there are many more professionals. I am seeing many A-type applicants for work permits. These are the people who can get their work permits processed here in Chiang Mai within two days without having to send the matter down to Bangkok. Basically these are expatriates who work for companies which have a registered capital of over 30 million baht. The rest of the applicants need to follow much more long winded processes! Today I also notice that there are more women and families. By nationalities, I think that there are more Americans here followed closely by the British, Germans and Japanese. Q: In working with people from so many countries every day, is your staff qualified to deal with this? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: I don?t know what you mean by qualified. All of us are police officers. That is what we have been trained for; we have just been transferred here to immigration. If you are asking whether we receive training, then of course we do. We are often attending seminars and training courses so that we can do our job better. Is it enough? No not really. And the most frustrating element is the fact that hardly any of us speak English. We have also received a couple of English training courses and have been taught what to say when dealing with visa problems. But we don?t know the language and people invariably ask us questions outside the scope of what we have learnt. The accents of people such as Scottish, French, and other accents from around the world are also very confusing and then there are those who don?t speak English at all. This makes our job very hard. Q: So what are the problems which you face constantly? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: The cultural differences make things very difficult. Sometimes farang come here and expect the system here to be exactly like theirs at home, and they expect us to treat them and speak to them as though we were staff from their country. Sometimes people shout at us and tell us to go and learn English. Sometimes people shout at us and tell us that our system is useless and bad and that we are useless and bad. I don?t think this is right. If I was in the United States and had to go and see their immigration department I wouldn?t expect them to speak Thai and I wouldn?t expect them to know my culture, but I would instead conform to their culture. Sometimes people say that they come here to Thailand bringing lots of money and why aren?t we more grateful and make things easier for them. This makes me want to say to them that I am sure that they are receiving something from this country too. They are obviously making some money too, they are obviously getting some satisfaction as well and they are obviously happy to be here; it?s not my job to bend the rules for someone who brings in more money than most. The problem is that people think that immigration is a service. We are not. We are an enforcement office. That having been said, I do think that our staff should have more English language training so we can better explain and understand. But this is not my call. Q: What would you do about it if you could? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: I don?t want to say too much here as it?s not my place to. But my staff and I also feel frustrated with this system. It is not our jobs to make the policies, only to enforce them. If there were less documents and papers required to make a work permit or visa, then it would make my job a lot easier as well. I don?t like having to send people back to prepare more documents, but if I don?t get the required papers, and if I send them down to Bangkok and they get rejected, this creates more work for me all over again. For instance, computers are great. But this is Thailand, and Thai government bodies like paper, we all know that! So everything has to be recorded. And since asking for a work permit requires dealing with so many departments, such as immigration, labour office, etc., each department?s regulations must be adhered to and you can imagine how complicated it all gets and how many pieces of paper are required. Q: Has the system improved at all in fifteen years? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: Absolutely. The decentralisation has been a tremendous help. Before, everything had to be sent down to Bangkok. I mean everything! Now, we can do quite a lot here in Chiang Mai although we are still bound by very rigid rules. Soon, I hope that some of these rules will be loosened to allow us to make on-the-scene judgments so that we don?t have to consult with Bangkok about everything. They just need to trust us more. There has also just been a 200 million baht budget approved to centralise our computer systems. Right now every immigration office has its own programmes and computer systems and they can?t be correlated together. Hopefully once the central system is put up this will help everyone to co-ordinate things, such as black listed people, illegals, criminals, etc. Q: What do you think of the new dramatic increase in fees? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: The last time that the rates increased was in 1980, that is twenty three years ago. I think it?s fair enough to increase the price after all this time. But personally I think it?s a bit much and I do feel sorry for many of the farang who live here because I know that many can?t really afford this. But once again, this is not my call. Q: You must be expecting this question. What is up with all the corruption going on here? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: It?s hard to say. If I say that corruption doesn?t happen here then I would be lying. If one of my staff extorts a visitor for money and refuses to co-operate if they are not given this money then I will punish them according to the regulations. If you or your friends encounter corruption then I would encourage them to come directly to me and report it. If they don?t trust me, they I encourage them to go above me to my bosses and report it. I have personally never witnessed it. I have just heard about it. I know that sometimes people give money as a form of thanks for the help that they have received, and in this case I don?t mind if my staff receive this thank you payment. Another problem is that many foreigners don?t come here and do their work permits themselves, staff at their company come and often the staff claim that there has been money demanded, when in actual fact there hasn?t. Q: Do you feel pride in your work? Do you think that you are making a difference? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: I feel so sorry for some of the really poor farang and sometimes when I see men being conned by Thai women I feel for them and I try to help them as much as I can. I am Thai and us Thai love to help. I want to help everyone, but I can?t. We will always try our best to give good advice to people and even if we can?t help them, to send them in the right direction. Q: If there is something which you can say to foreigners now what would you say? Pol. Lt. Col. Banphot: I want foreigners to have more access to real information, so that they aren?t confused and problems don?t arise. I would also like to ask them to please be sensitive to our culture and understand what our job is and what our limitations are. It would be nice if people dressed politely (they don?t have to be smart, just polite) when they come to visit us. Try not to lose their tempers, this is useless; and don?t complain about the policies, we know the problems; we just can?t do anything about it. Lastly I want to say that we love helping you and look forward to it. Source: Chiang Mai News (with thanks!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Hi, Won't this then make the marriage visa completely useless? If I read this correctly the only way to get one is if you have a job and a work permit. Of course if you have a work permit you have a 1-year visum (non Immigrant already. So, why would you want to apply for the marriage visa? Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongatu Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Thanks for posting that. I wonder what (for those wishing to retire in Thailand) would constitute "evidence of the necessity to stay permanantly" in Thailand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 A photo of their farang wife, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongatu Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 A photo of their farang wife, perhaps? Very funny, but seriously I'd like to know what kind of answers to this would be accepted by the immigration police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whosyourdaddy Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 non immigrant O is much easier to get than non immigrant B, so people sometimes go that route. seems they have just raised the bank balance from 200,000 to 400,000 for a marriage visa. 800,000 for normal.. no biggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Hi, Okay, but from what I understand this would no longer be an option if this becomes reality, right? Also, how about the reverse? Does a farang woman need a work permit & steady income when married to a Thai man? And if not, then why isn't a farang man allowed to marry a Thai woman and live off her income? (Maybe this allowed, don't know; doubt it though) I get the feeling that a lot of these rules are different when it is a woman marrying a Thai man. Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lopburi3 Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 If I read this correctly the only way to get one is if you have a job and a work permit. Remember that many of the items listed will likely be 'if applicable' rather than required for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Did not see much useful on this, did anyone else. Income and savings of at least 800,000 and also minumum of 65,000 a month. Income alone at this rate is 780,000 so you would only need 20,000 savings. No mention of 90 day visas. Wonder what about a person under 50 with more than the 65G monthly and 800,000. I still see them making exceptions to the teaching profession. What about bar owners where will they fit into these rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingaporeSteve Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Very Interesting message. The way I read this is that it is aimed at people living here and essentially not paying any tax through not declaring an income and by having a marriage visa. Unlikely the wife is paying hardly any tax as well. "What about bar owners where will they fit into these rules." I would assume that they are the one's going to feel the most heat from this Certainly seems that the noose is tightening on those people playing the system to their advantage... Makes you wonder why the British Gov't cant get their act together on illegal immigrants Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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