Guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Seems as though ND might be a little 'Zenseless' himself, right now, and is seeing double. :: But he is right. A record thread, to be sure! HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 >>AIDS in this age is not a *mortal* danger anymore. so far, with proper use of available antiretrovirals life might very possibly not be shortened significantly<< Over the last year (before this thread) I have not concerned myself too much with the boyfriend based on the above. Telling him and blowing up the ex-gf's life has not seem warranted by the 'danger' to the bf. *IF* he gets infected, then its a ten year incubation period, then he discovers the hiv (if he has not already discovered it or died from other causes) then he can start anti-retrovirals and continue his life long after that. This scenario is not life or death in my view. Does not necesarily follow that he should not be told, but if the justification for telling is that his life is on the line i don't buy it. I'm simplifying here, and no expert on HIV. If i got it wrong i would like someone to speak up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 A record thread<< Well an extremely valuable thread to me. Woke me up to thinking about the BF which i had not done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Hi Zen, <<<Well an extremely valuable thread to me. Woke me up to thinking about the BF which i had not done before.<<<< Well.....then all 26 pages have been worth it! It may not have changed your course of direction, but at least you can walk away, armed with a fully debated topic, with many viewpoints given, to come to a conclusion you might be able to be comfortable with. It's good you posted here! It's a subject matter that any of us, might come up against, at any time. Knowledge is power. I hope you can, and will, make the most of it, Zen. HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaad Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Fly, "you assume too much. step by step. step one: go to get professional advice step to: wait and see what they have to say step four: lets talk again everything else comes after. no need to break our head over what might be, or might not be, or might maybe be... " I don't think anybody here would disagree with this. Most of the conversation has been about 'the next part'. BTW you go a little too fast. Your step one should be step two IF she's willing to co-operate. Please don't assume such, you can get all the advice you want but if she is not to be bothered it's useless. Step one is talking and trying to convince the girl to get and accept the help from others whom you refer to as prefessionals and listen to their advice. So the very first step is: communicate with the girl. next is highly dependent on her answer. It seems like a 'no' but she may have changed her mind and changed it into a 'yes'. We simply don't know. If she accepts then follow your steps. If no...then it's pretty hopeless and that's what most of the fuss in this thread has been about. IMHO..the problem is when she refuses help. And that's what we must discuss here...the problem..the worst case scenario, because if she accept then it's obvious what to do. If she doesn't want to do shit about her own health situation then I think we should automatically focus our attention on those who may be treathened her her, her bf, or simply back off. If there's concern for the girl only, then the privacy issue will stop one from doing anything further in all cases. If there's concern for both then IMO the fact that the girl refuses any help whatsoever convinces me (at least) that she has no problems taking risks in her relationship. That's very worrisome. In this difficult case I would personally play 'better safe than sorry'. So: Step one: Communicate with the girl and convice to accept help. Step two: if 'agreed' then get help and follow experts' advice and so on. If 'no' .......tell bf - don't tell bf. Whether Zenseless likes it or not. He WILL make a decision. Whatever it will be nobody can tell whether he chose right or wrong. Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 but the weaker your position becomes the harder and more emotional you defend it. -------------------------------- I can't belive i am reading this. My "emotions" as you say have nothing to with defending my points or even the topic, it' against the personal axe-grinding that SGMK is pissing me off with. How my position is weaker since I find and said there are many possible ways to go at it, all I respect? So, where is the weakness, FlyW? is it so difficult to agree? ------------------------------ On professional advice? i don't even remember saying something against it, (said that in the hypothesis the guy is in front of me, never to be seen or heard again, I may wish to attempt helping right away) . This is exactly part of the attempt i talked about. By some of us saying at the beginning of the thread that maybe something should be done, we have come to you giving infos to Z about it. My deed, as small as it is, is done. remember that the thread started by 2 choices, contacting the guy or not by a stranger or ex-BF. It has now come to seriously address a professional way to do something about it, as i wish it. seems my POV (to do something) was vindicated, rather than weakened, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 usually in sneaky me-too posts without addressing me personally. ------------------------- pure paranoia. I had no idea who zaad answered and had no idea it was the DOHR. It's you who came back with it, and i told you my opinion that it was irrelevant . Why? because it would be a private disclosure meant to help someone, not to directly "out" publicly a HIV+ person. When I asked you to come up with a fact, court case, philosophy, anything to back up your opinion that it is all up to the individual, you came up with not a single argument. None whatsoever! ------------------------- Here, i don't understand you. I don't need to go thru law books to make a personal decision based on my own morality to help another human being i consider in danger. If I am the only one to think like this in the world, so be it. And IMO, there are court cases, philosophies or facts enough to lean one way or another. You forgot that I respect all choices in that matter. You are dead wrong here, period. Here's a definition for you: Human rights, universal rights held to belong to individuals by virtue of their being human, encompassing civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights and freedoms, and based on the notion of personal human dignity and worth. ------------------------------ No, I am dead right. I would find personal dignity and worth a great help and inspiration to help another human being. Again, the DOHRs is an encouragement and a defense of man's individual choices and free-will, and to respect differences between person, in our case, all the opinions said here. I also added that, although I would definitely like to know, telling me would be wrong, because it breaks the girls' right to privacy. -------------------------------- specious argument, at trying to have it both ways for escaping your contradictions after so fiercely defending the girl's privacy here. You are simply admitting that you would not consider the wrong of breaking the girl's privacy an impediment to being told or something so unalianable. We find common ground, finally. No idea or memory you posted that in the other thread, so i apologize for calling you a coward. So far you can't be bothered to explain ------------------------------ I did. It's still there. You pretexted the argument was about our different POVs, and i said it's not, it's about you taking the moral high ground and pretending I do not show well for calling myself a philosopher. Doing this, using labels i never ever used for myself and railing my sense of morale, you chose to attack me personally, since my first answer to Zaad had nothing to do with any member, you or any other, but exactly what he wrote. You should know very well that the sentence Zaad used was a metaphor for saying that individuals are sometimes faced with decisions they must take in their own conscience, not following a book. This happens many times in our lives. That's the way i read it and that's the way i applauded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 *IF* he gets infected, then its a ten year incubation period, then he discovers the hiv (if he has not already discovered it or died from other causes) then he can start anti-retrovirals and continue his life long after that. ---------------------------- Stop the press! Why worry about aids? Youpeeee! Sorry, but if you had found out you were HIV when you tested with her, is that the kind of no-brainer thought you'd come out with? Say it's not your business to tell him, i respect that, but don't cop out by pretexting aids is not so bad after all. It's still contagious during incubation as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Relax pattaya 127. There are some people who prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand. No amount of logic will dissuade them. We had a very basic scenario presented to us by zenseless that somehow got turned into a whopping great thread. I am not saying that there weren't some good points raised but those against telling raised some rather far fetched senarios of vigilantism, totalitarian states, breach of individual rights, suicide etc It is always good to be aware of the ramifications of your actions but sometimes you can over intellectualise a situation and end up paralysing yourself into inaction. IMHO this is one of these situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soongmak Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 You are dead wrong here, period. Here's a definition for you: Human rights, universal rights held to belong to individuals by virtue of their being human, encompassing civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights and freedoms, and based on the notion of personal human dignity and worth. [color:"red"] ------------------------------ No, I am dead right. I would find personal dignity and worth a great help and inspiration to help another human being. Again, the DOHRs is an encouragement and a defense of man's individual choices and free-will, and to respect differences between person, in our case, all the opinions said here. [/color] Dude, your arguing with an encyclopedia here! It's not my definition. And all you come up with is a quote from the book "the world according to P127"? If you don't agree with the definition I have found, at least give me an alternative definition to support your POV, but don't insult me with baseless opinions, please. You pull the same stunt when it comes to privacy. You argue that the DOHR is irrelevant because " [color:"red"] it would be a private disclosure meant to help someone, not to directly "out" publicly a HIV+ person. [/color] You just don't get it, do you. You either violate her privacy, or you don't. There's no exemption for a 'little' breach of privacy, or because it's "meant to help someone." That's exactly what arbitrary interference in the DOHR is all about. It's not for you to decide. About me being dishonest, you say the following: [color:"red"] You pretexted the argument was about our different POVs, and i said it's not, it's about you taking the moral high ground and pretending I do not show well for calling myself a philosopher. Doing this, using labels i never ever used for myself and railing my sense of morale, you chose to attack me personally, since my first answer to Zaad had nothing to do with any member, you or any other, but exactly what he wrote. [/color] P127, where's the dishonesty in this? All I see is I hurt your pride, and gee, you're not afraid to throw around a few punches yourself. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, I'd say. Or better yet, complain to a moderator ::! [color:"red"] No idea or memory you posted that in the other thread, so i apologize for calling you a coward. [/color] I really don't know why you even bother. You called me a fucking moron, a coward and dishonest to boot, and you apologize for one out of three? Gee, how generous of you. :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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