Regarding Press Censorship

[FIGJAM]

flyonzewall said:

are you talking about the numerous ethnic wars in africa which to a large part a a consequence of the agressive western politics of colonialism, the cold war interferences, such as installing brutal dictatorships, and after the collapse subsequent apathy of western governments?

yeah, i know of them.

No, I am (also) talking about the ethnic wars which preexisted any western colonization and that were stopped by force by the colonizers and resumed once they left and no you don't know them.

Another example which may enlight you: pre-colombian American civilizations, such as the Maya or American Indians ones, were extremely violent and bloody. Tribus of American Indians were constantly mercilessly fighting each other.

 

 

and yeah, somalia, i know of that. the somalia that had a brief period of relative piece, during which the leaders begged to have a UN help.

What leaders are you talking about??

 

 

that same UN that at the time was a bit too busy to defend US oil interests in the kuwaiti "democracy". hmmm. yeah, very humanitarian...

US oil interests eh? Whenever "US oil interests" are put at risk the economic effects are felt even by the Thais of your neighbourhood. The economy of the whole world is based on oil.

 

 

and the completely botched far too late somalia engagement, thousands of dead in that completely incompetent black hawk down incident. have you read the account? a few soldiers were sent into a combatzone based on insufficient intelligence, not enough water and equipment, and no alternative escape plans. brilliant, the rescue action cost thousands of somalis, civilians and combattants, their lifes, and made any further engagement impossible.

 

Had they had tanks as requested by the military the outcome would have been very different.

But tanks weren't "politically corrected" and didn't "looked good" in a humanitarian mission in the eyes of indoctrinated western opinions (yours).

If memory serves me right, Pakistanis, with tanks with UN marks, saved the too politically corrected Americans.

 

 

the only thing your beloved US is able to is to botch things up because of their short term isiolationist interests, and then, when the shit hits the fan, or when it is in the US economical interests, to bomb the shit of everybody. ever talked with some recent afghanisthan war veterans about the US conduct? how many incidents when bombers were called on some village because they had some wedding party and some incompetent groundforce did not know that it is traditional to shoot in the air. far more incidents along those lines than you can read in the media, i can assure you that.

I would like to learn from you what is the stabilizing force of the world, what country "is doing it right", whom should we be taking as role model.

Forget the evil US/Western societies and tell me the better/less bad one that is really trying to do something to better itself and the rest of the world. The one that lives/tries to live by the more free, democratic, civil, advanced, caring, fair, *humane* values and principles.

Have asked that question many times to many people and never got any answer.

I am all ears, flyonzewall.

 

 

you see, history is not singular events that can be suited around your personal little delusions. history is a continuum of actions and reactions.

 

the job of the media is to report about incidents independently, and as unbiased as possible. the job of a human is to inform himself from as many sources as possible, including history books, before forming his/her opinions.

This makes perfect sense and is more or less what I am trying to say here, so I just have to wonder what your "sources" are...

...ah, yes. I got it: "VOELKER HOERT DIE SIGNAAAAALE....DIE INTERNATIONAAAAALE (tatatatam...)"

 

 

the reason that i am utterly tired of talking with you is that you only come up with the same old warmongering, intercepted by racist crap, the same old infantile shortsighted kneejerk explanations. as long as your posts are nothing else than a repetition of the same old boring shite, i just see no reason to treat you any different than a fucking troll who is only out to get interesting threads closed.

 

so, just fuck off.

Your usual animal reaction when you run out of the few groundless arguments you have.

 

You know from past experiences that it takes me very little to answer you back on your very same level but "for some reason" the mods always quickly jump at MY throat so this time I am going to hold back and see what they have to say on your getting personal and verbal abuse...

[FIGJAM]

Khun_Kong said:

No need to be so offended, Fig.

 

I meant for both quotes to be included- just easier to quote you, which showed both posts (you and Alkie's).

Ok, no problem.

I wasn't offended at all anyway, just slightly annoyed at the fact that you took the time to notice and rebuke me/us for an OT sub-thread while ignoring the real issues in the "proper", "legit", In Topic reply (which is still unanswered)...

 

 

Want to try to keep this thread ontrack, so it doesn't shut down.

So, wouldn't replying to my early IT response be a nice thing to do? ::

 

And more so since discussing the points I raised would most likely also answer part of your questions below...

 

 

Good "semi-documentary" about FOX, called "Out-Foxxed". From a left viewpoint, but I think makes many/mostly valid statement about the lack of journalistic standards at FOX News.

 

International Herald Tribune on-line would be a good read for many Amerikans. Most of my comments are directed Stateside, because that is where my experience is. As I said at the top, even my close friends seem remarkably ill-informed lately, almost as though some drug has been added to their water!

 

What other sources have people found to be more credible than FOX/CNN type outlets?

 

Anybody think the media in their own country is wide-open honest and revealing?

[Khun_Kong]

Bit too vitriolic for my tastes.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

Fly, keep the insults to yourself, okay?

You've been on this board long enough that such comments are *not* tolerated.

 

Sanuk!

[Zorro]

Figjam

 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

Of course we all know atrocities, brutality and indecent behaviour are not strictly the province of one country or one group of people but rather unfortunately they exist in all societies.

This thread thou is about press censorship and the point that many are making here is that the free press in the west is not as free as we might like to think it is. This seems to be especially so when we look at the recent Iraq war and the role the press in the US and some other countries . To this view there are quite a few documentaries outlining the spin via embedded journalists took and also let's not forget a lot of the coverage prior to the war was rather lacking in objectivity.

Now we are not talking here about press censorship in other non western countries that may indeed be worse.

We are talking primarily about western media coverage.

If we as westerners are to take the high moral ground we need to back it up. Living in the Arab world as i do the reaction to a lot of the nonsense that has been printed in the west about Iraq and the Arab world in general has only served to alienate many moderate Arabs and push them into the arms of the propaganda coming out of a lot of the Arab press. This has not helped the situation in the ME.

If we in the west see ourselves as having a more evolved more sophisticated type of government i.e democracy then it is up to us to show the world that we are better than many of the tin pot despots out there. Unfortunatley we haven't done that of late.

[MaiLuk]

Hi Z:

 

>>If we in the west see ourselves as having a more evolved more sophisticated type of government i.e democracy then it is up to us to show the world that we are better than many of the tin pot despots out there. Unfortunatley we haven't done that of late. <<

 

 

I believe that figjam has been going to great lengths to show that things in fact are much worse in other places as far as freedom of the press etc. So if you are going to say that they are not any worse you may want to provide facts.

 

I agree with your statement that the west and especially the US has to maintain a much higher standard of conduct. Its a price we have to pay so long as GW is going to go around saying everyone should have democracy because it is superior.

[Zorro]

Mailuk

"I believe that figjam has been going to great lengths to show that things in fact are much worse in other places as far as freedom of the press etc. So if you are going to say that they are not any worse you may want to provide facts."

 

Zorro said

"Now we are not talking here about press censorship in other non western countries that may indeed be worse."

 

I think i already addressed that issue in my last post!

[jxxxl]

flyonzewall said:

the reason that i am utterly tired of talking with you is that you only come up with the same old warmongering, intercepted by racist crap, the same old infantile shortsighted kneejerk explanations. as long as your posts are nothing else than a repetition of the same old boring shite, i just see no reason to treat you any different than a fucking troll who is only out to get interesting threads closed.

 

so, just fuck off. i am out of that potentially interesting thread here.

 

Hilarious!!!!!!!

 

All your bullshit can't build a case or substaitiate your posiiton so you throw insults and bail out. Ha ha ha. Fly, you are an intellectual among the stupid.

 

You and Tedd Kaczynski would be perfect bedmates.

[Sukhumvit]

 

To use your words, I have placed some other facts in front of you yet you still don't see or think that other governments/nations/cultures other than the American are capable of things infinitely worse than killing an Islamic extremist fighter...

 

1. Don't invent things. I am fully aware that other nations carry out evil actions. However you have an extremely defensive attitude and seem to think that any reference to a bogus administration's questionable activities is an assault upon the "American" culture/people. It is not. Where do you get that idea from? Is that a result of paranoia so prevalent in American media conditioning?

 

 

 

2. Some people do. Clearly not certain governments. Or why kill civilians?

Most of the people don't even know about them, that was my point!

 

 

2. I don't think you had made that point. Governments are fully aware of what goes on. They have intelligence services, embassies, foreign services, consulates etc.

 

 

And that's why we are all concerned about the freedom of the Iraqis "mined" by the Americans instead of the real issues, of what really goes on in the world...

 

3. Ah, but we're not all concerned about the freedom of the Iraqis are we? Do you honestly believe that the US administration, the British administration or any other coalition administration is concerned about the freedom of the Iraqi people? That's why the Kurds were hung out to dry after the end of the first gulf war. That's why the Marsh Arabs were inspired to rebel and left dangling when the Republican Guard massacred them after the first gulf war etc.

 

 

The mainstream media circus is busy (succesfully) feeding you with shocking stories of evil Americans bringing death and destruction in once peaceful Iraq to show you what really goes on everyday in other "peaceful" Asian and African countries...

 

 

4. So now it's a mainstream media circus? What would you have? No reporting of anything that goes on other than the propaganda that is fed you? Surely that would be the hallmark of a totalitarian regime? Or maybe that's what you think the US/World needs? Don't tell me that you don't agree in freedom and liberty and the right to free speech? A minute ago you were harping on about the "freedom" of the Iraqis but you don't believe your/our own news organisations should be free to tell it how it really is. As for calling the Americans evil you've done that not me. I don't even think FOTW did that although I'm not going to trawl back through his volumes of posting on this thread to check.

 

 

3. Many people who approved western involvement in genuine humanitarian crises of recent times do not approve the aggression in Iraq.

So what? That was not my point at all.

 

 

5. I don't really think you have a point do you.

 

 

I'm saying that there are many "humanitarian crises" happening right fucking now which get ignored by the politically corrected mainstream media (and consequently by the folks like you who rely on them to form their outlook and their vision of the world) because they are too busy showing us how bad we westerners and, especially, they Americans are...

 

6. What do you propose we do about the humanitarian crises? What do you want your government to do? What do you want the coalition to do? Any bright ideas? How about invade a country that wasn't harbouring the terrorists or weapons of mass destruction your government claims it was? Why? Well, seemed like a good thing at the time. I'm not politically correct. I believe that sometimes war is the only solution * in response to an aggressor.* I do however try to take an objective view about world issues. I don't think that you do. What sort of "folks" like me are you referring to? I'm not a extreme left communist and don't adhere to any political affiliation. I'm not

busy showing the world how bad Westerners are "especially... Americans." Where do you get that from? I don't think Americans are bad people. I do think that the administration is. I don't believe that the current administration has the best interests of Americans or other citizens of the world at the core of their beliefs. What do you think the current administration is interested in? Freeing the world? Waging war? Killing innocent non-Americans? Feathering their own nests?

 

4. Could the reason why the caring, sharing western governments haven't intervened in the countries you mention yet be due to the fact that they don't have an abundance of oil?

??? Are you sure you have understood what I was talking about when I wrote:

 

 

7. I think I understand you but maybe I'd better take Logic & Cognitive Thought 101? I really don't think you know what you are talking about. That's the truth.

 

Saudi Arabia ... Congo ...Afghanistan ... Iran ... Ruanda ... Somalia or children being raped in "pagan" rituals ....China ...USSR ... "black holes" like North Korea

A bit of a contradiction, isn't it?..

 

 

8. I recognise the names of other foreign countries and I understand that really bad things have gone on and probably continue to go on in those countries. I'll ask you now what sort of solution do you propose to stop all of the bad things going on? How do you think the US administration can stop "children being raped in "pagan" rituals"? Come on, tell me. What by the way has that got to do with the current thread? Where does this go on and has George Bush Jr got plans to send in the 10th Mountain Division to stop it?

 

Alas your politically corrected masters (the ones that told you the Americans intervened in Kossovo, in Afghanistan and in Somalia for the oil) don't explain that, do they?

 

 

9. Honestly, I swear to God I don't have "politcally corrected masters" and am not part of some bizarre communist conspiracy although I believe that the Illuminati do control the world from a secret cabal held at Bohemian Grove every year and that they are actively plotting a satanic blood sacrifice and that their Euro Puppets in the Bilderberg Group hope to destabilise the world and are working on a plan right now to position giant magnets at the north and south poles to reverse the polarity of the world and our only chance for salvation is to embrace the good book and our M16s to our bosoms and pray for the rapture etc ad nauseam

[jxxxl]

"Figjam

 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make."

 

Don't strain yourself Zorro.

 

One of the points Figjam is making is that if there is institutoinalized censorship in the US, give an example; a concrete example not a baseless emotional outburst.

 

Another point is in defence of the position taken by many posters, that Americans are ignorant becuase they don't see, or better agree, with what liberals believe to be the truth. He is also pointing out the hypocracy of the argument that Americans are unjust and unsympathetic when the accusers fail to recognize far worse injustices in the world.