George W Bush: welcome to reality

[MaiLuk]

Things have become surreal over here.

 

Americans wrote out their constitution a couple hundred years ago. One part of it requires the guv to go into a court and prove good cause before getting a wiretap (or otherwise engaging in conduct that involves shoving a microscope up the ass of a US citizen). Not a single word of that part of the constitution has been changed since it was enacted.

 

Some people here even say this law is the underpinning of american style liberty (that Bush wants to spread to iraq).

 

Recently it was leaked that the Bush crowd (using the NSA) has been spying. On americans.

 

Bush went on the offensive. "It was a shameful act" to have leaked details of this highly classified program.

 

George says the authority to bypass the court derived from the Constitution :: and Congress' vote authorizing the use of military force after the 2001 terror attacks.

 

"I can fully understand why members of Congress are expressing concerns about civil liberties," the president said. "I want to make sure the American people understand, however, that we have an obligation to protect you, and we're doing that, and at the same time, protecting your civil liberties ."

 

 

Read article here

[MaiLuk]

Bush is the dumbest in the last 60 years i don't think this is debatable.

[sayjann]

as DavidUK66 says..........Blair is a Cunt.

i have never voted for him and he has fucked up this Country.

look at the HUGE victory he has won with the EU.

he thinks that the Brits losing a few Billion over the few Years which will mean Taxes going up and services will be cut to make up the deficit is good news for the UK.......where's the wanker icon?.

 

but i wonder how many People from Nations around the World are actually happy with their 'leader' even if they voted for them?.

[Hugh_Hoy]

MaiLuk said:

Things have become surreal over here.

 

Americans wrote out their constitution a couple hundred years ago. One part of it requires the guv to go into a court and prove good cause before getting a wiretap (or otherwise engaging in conduct that involves shoving a microscope up the ass of a US citizen).

 

Ooops ! I must've been sleeping during that part of several consitutional law classes. My bad ! Maybe you can quote which Article spells that out for me. Gracias.

 

HH

[enigma]

Fourth Amendment, one of the key cornerstones of the Bill of Rights:

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

Bush could be in seriously deep shit over this, and I'm talking impeachment. There were ways they could have complied with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (which allows you to get a wiretap warrant within 72 hours after you made the tap) and the Constitution, but for some reason they chose not to. I smell a rat, a la Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover and "enemies lists." Bush is well known for his "if you're not with me you're against me" mindset.

 

And then this story came out a few hours ago:

 

WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 - Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.

 

Now why would the FBI counterterrorism people be investigating environmentalists, animal rights and poverty relief activists? Could it be because those groups might oppose Bush policies and Bush wants to thwart them politically? Or maybe Bush just doesn't like "dirty hippie types?"

 

And then there was the story the other day about the Pentagon monitoring peace protests and photographing the participants. Maybe that's commonplace in many other countries, but most Yanks had thought that those days were long gone in America, after the abuses during the Vietnam era.

 

Bush is no longer President, he has appointed himself King. And I'm sure he thinks it's God's will. America is FUBAR.

[cavanami]

250,000,000 people in the USA and the Dems and Repubs can only come up with Bush and Kerry???

 

That is the shame of it all!!!

[Hugh_Hoy]

enigma said:

Fourth Amendment, one of the key cornerstones of the Bill of Rights:

 

You are quite right. However, "The 4th" wasn't a part of the Contsitution as drafted and ratified in 1787-88. (That's why I asked which "article".) The Bill of Rights was ratified several years later (1791?) Further, "probable cause" is required for a search warrant...not "reasonable cause". "Reasonable cause" is a different animal.

 

As for the use of warrantless electronic interceptions, in the case that has the panties of many in a knot, involves "exigent circumstances" which have traditionally nullified the "warrant in hand" requirement.

 

For those who might not understand, here's a hypothetical: an interception from Osama to a person in the U.S. is made during which Osama asks if everything is ready to blow. The person in the U.S. says, "I can have it done in 15 minutes if you say 'go'. All I have to do is make three phone calls." Osama says "go". Now, do you really think time is going to be taken to a judge to get a warrant. Fuck no ! The listeners are gonna try to key in on the U.S. person's phone and try to get better info that might stop an attack...or an assassination..or any other possible terrorist activities.

 

Lots of bullshit from some Congressional leaders for political hay...nothwithstanding that leaders of both major parties have known about this "warrantless" activity for quite some time. And, lots of bullshit on the board here from people who simply use the issue as another outlet for their dislike for Bush. In so doing, some even make Bush look like an Einstein

 

HH

[enigma]

Again, as I said, under the provisions of FISA, they can act immediately on the wiretap and request the warrant later, within 72 hours. As long as a US citizen is not involved and it's not within US borders.

 

If they wanted to allow for this capability within US borders, they should have amended FISA in the days after 911, and no one would have raised any objections (as happened with the Patriot Act - it sailed to approval even though only one Senator had read it). But they didn't. They chose to circumvent FISA instead. Why?

 

But more important than that are the implications surrounding eavesdropping on US citizens without a warrant, as that's a 4th issue, and a very big deal.

 

Also, if you've been following the story closely, you'd notice that even the senior members of Congress, even on the Intelligence Committees, were given only partial information about what Bush was doing (which is consistent with how he shared restricted intel about Iraq with them). Bush did not tell them about the more egregious things, and members of Congress are sworn to secrecy on these topics. They are even forbidden to talk amongst themselves about it. Read the memo that Rockefeller (#2 on the Senate Intel Committee) sent to Cheney to complain about it (it was handwritten because he was forbidden from even dictating it to someone for typing). No one could speak a word of it, for fear of being charged with treason. Hence the reason no one in Congress spoke up to object.

 

Finally, I'm a political moderate who cannot fathom how any American could possibly continue to support Bush at this point, regardless of their political persuasion. But, seeing as you appear to view it differently, I will refrain from engaging you on this topic further, as I'm sure you know how people can get quite riled up about it. ::

[Tiger Moth]

And, here is the other shame of it all:

 

 

In the news: Bush's Approval Ratings Climb

[paul101]

 

 

Ted Kennedy was an 'arsehole' bush an 'idiot' to end all idiots, blair apparently a 'cunt' are there ANY western leaders somebody admires over the past 40 years? My vote goes to Margaret Thatcher, wonder woman who saved the UK from union tyrany, Arggie dictators and near financial ruin from the EU. Also did more for the working class than any so called socialist govt before or since.