Is it the Girl or is it the Scene

[Old Hippie]

In thinking about this more and more, I'd say the girl is most likely a product of her environment, she then may choose to go into P4P and then gets more currupted by the situation/scene...So I'd say girl first, then the scene...

 

Mai Luk wrote: "...Another way of looking at it. There are a huge number of woman who meet the definition of a whore. They have good jobs, maybe an advanced degree. They have no boyfriend but love sex. They go out several nights a week to clubs to find guys for a good fuck session..."

 

Oh yeah, well if you're such an expert, tell me one thing...WHERE!!!!????

 

"...Can we say that a married person who has an affair is immoral?.."

 

Depending on the circumstances...yes. Marrage is if I understand it right, a commitment, and a promise to forsake all others...so cheating under certain circumstances is breaking that promise...lieing etc, and that is by my standards immoral.

 

But again, regarding Bar girls/P4P we cannot use our morals in their world...they see things differently then we do.

[MaiLuk]

And then there is probably a small group of Thais out there who find prostitution completely unaccpeptable but they have no power against the gov and current way of thinking regardless of their activities for change. Think Greepeace but much less successful!.

 

Those small groups exist in all countries. Two adults engaging in a consensual transaction should not be prohibited from doing so. While it is fine for those groups to have their moral beliefs it is also fine for the two adults to have their beliefs about freedom. Where the experiential well being philosophers are failing imo is that they present no solution for resolving the conflict when one group tries to enforce its code on others (tho that may not be their purpose i know).

[MaiLuk]

>>Oh yeah, well if you're such an expert, tell me one thing...WHERE!!!!???? <<

 

There out there man you will have to trust me on that ::

 

Don't know about you but i haven't had one in a looong time. Too busy defending the morals of thai girls. I will be rewarded for my sacrifices someday (late January to be exact)

[MaiLuk]

OH said >>Depending on the circumstances...yes. Marrage is if I understand it right, a commitment, and a promise to forsake all others...so cheating under certain circumstances is breaking that promise...lieing etc, and that is by my standards immoral.<<

 

Its amazing what people married will do to one another. Things that you would never do to a friend (or enemy). I had my final divorce hearing scheduled for valentine's day and got the judgment that day. The wife was not amused.

[jasmine]

[color:"blue"] To determine whether it is accepted, tolerated, or not tolerated/accepted i think one just has to count noses but one will find all three...

 

CB

[/color]

 

I agree with you for the comments. It could be I am old-fashioned and not living in Thailand for the past 39 years.

 

In my growing days, in the North, a lot of young women became prostitutes to pay for the families and believe me, it was very hidden, forget about bringing a farang to visit. The temples wpoulld not even take the donation from the families whose children they though were working in the industry, of course now, it is different:o

 

My definition on toleratation is that the profession is tolerated by most people, in my analysis, listed below are the reasons:

 

1. Some people profit from this as you gave the examples real well, hotel staff, bars owners, shop keepers, etc. I knew a family of bar owners who profited from the business extremely but he disowned a niece for marrying a "farang"

 

2. A lot of Thais believe that life is a "karma" so they think nothing of doing anything about it, as long as they are not involved in the family/reputation. Many of these families do not put up with any of thse activities and will avoid the contact of the women and their families, period. I know I have one, especially my brother, his feelings are much stronger than anyone I have seen. My mother sees things a bit differently , perhaps because she sees things in different way but she will never supports prostitution. I would never have understood it if I didn't live overseas and talked/met these women for in Thailand, my society would have been in different route. Most of my school friends who studied abroad like me but came back to Thailand do not even tolerate it. One has retired from the States and back to Thailand and is trying to get help for these women. She has lived in the USA and has met many of these women here and she wanted to help, I don't know how far she would go.

 

 

3. There are Thai men who would go to these women but in the open would just tolerate it in bars and clubs. Their analogy is they are there to be bought, just like any item and I think they are glad that those women are available. However, they would never bring them up as wives or even claim them as equals.

 

In conclusion, the Thais tolerate them because there is nothing they want to do or could do about it. My family is in the North, not Isaan and I am told that many parents of these women are gossiped about all the time, so judge as what you like. Mind you some people who try to do something about it but do not ever catch up for it involves deep and delicate problems of expectation of certain parents, of education, of the way ones think (call it moral if you want), materail gains, money management, etc.

 

I am sorry that I don't have black and white answer.

 

Jasmine ::

[chelseafan]

jasmine said:

[color:"blue"] Big difference here, Prostitution is accepted [/color]

 

I am sorry, not accepted, tolerated but not accepted. Just because some of those parents merrily accept their money has nothing to do with accepting. It is use, in my analogy. The same as the Thai men who goes to prostitution, do you think they accept them? More likely use them for they are there to be bought.

 

Many families , in Thailand will never let the neighbors know where the money is from or what their children do, forget about bringing the man to dinner, especially the man changes every other trip! ::

 

Jasmine

 

Agreed, thats what I meant, probably a poor choice of words.

I asked my g/f about the scene and she pretty much said the same, though she says that many families (especially up north) know their girls are in the scene but don't worry as long as the money comes in.

Another thing she said is that there's a lot of guys who arrange to marry poor girls by taking them away from their families, (20,000baht is a figure she mentioned) then sell them into the scene. When they go with men, they have to go upstairs rather than away from their work in case they run away. Thats something I find very disturbing......

[chelseafan]

Old Hippie said:

Chelseafan,

 

Yes, I agree, there is a big difference, non the less, the poverty issue is used here as a defense/excuse for many crimes, committed by Urban youth. "...how else can these kids get all the stuff society tells them they need...?" Basically, a poor ghetto kid sees a rapper or an athleate with serious big money, and sets their sights on that, rather than doctor or lawyer or tecnician or city worker money...it is an unrealistic goal for most of America, the only way to obtain it is through being blessed with stardom or superior athletic ability or hardwork and education struggle...OR crime... Crime is the easy way...

 

Add to this, bad influences from rappers, the athleates (many are just thugs with criminal records, same as rappers) the various street influences they see in "da hood" and maybe parents who are or have been involved in this game themselves...the influences make the kid, the kid enters the scene, and gets hardened by it all...so a lot more than Just simply poverty at work...non the less, poverty becomes the excuse...

 

the logic is the same for many bar girls, they have a very unrealistic goal, and no real way to get there by working...and little to no interest to work harder for less...or even to work hard for the same...but again, I patronize it, so I am part of the problem...Not judging, just discussing...

 

I see where you are coming from, but we're talking about kids who do have the possibility of obtaining the amercian dream through legal means, not by selling drugs or participating in crime but sheer hard work - many of the girls on the bar scene have never had the chance of education and see their only way of having a decent standard of living by selling the only thing they have - their body.

 

My G/f, spent less than two years at school whilst her brothers did their full term because there was very little help from the government (if any at all) and many of them, whilst not wanting to be in the scene, do at least send money back to their families, maybe as atonement for what they do.

 

The poor kids of America have choices, all american kids (no matter how poor you are) get an education giving them a chance to obtain their goals. To me that is the biggest difference

[packy]

There is an old saying, "Not to judge a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes". If you were struggling to just maintain a few meals per week, What would you do in order to have no worry about your meals? This is the oldest profession in the world. There are more and more areas accepting or tolerating this profession. Some here in this area do it to get through college, some do it out of necessity after a divorce, some do it just to have sex. I know one Lady of the Evening that is studying Criminal Justice while working as an escort. Another that is a Pre-Law student.

 

Whether it is accepted or tolerated, if the Gov't could tax it, it would be legal. What would you call it Nookie Tax?

 

Let's face it, how would it be without these Ladies? If they are clean, and conduct themselves as Ladies, I see no Foul.

[Old Hippie]

"...I see where you are coming from, but we're talking about kids who do have the possibility of obtaining the amercian dream through legal means, not by selling drugs or participating in crime but sheer hard work - many of the girls on the bar scene have never had the chance of education and see their only way of having a decent standard of living by selling the only thing they have - their body...."

 

This is the same argument they use..."...we have no other choice..." The bottom libne, more don't do it than do it, so...draw the conclusions...what I am noticing is the girls stating high end goods as a reason for it...before it was family kids house etc...last trip, I was with another board member at BG7 and the girl was telling us she needed to make a car payment...also "...got body scrub at the salon, hair done nails, new shoes..." all of which ate up the money she made the previious day...oh, and she had a Uni education, and had been in the USA before...San Francisco as a matterr of fact...

[chelseafan]

The "foul" is something you and I don't usually see.

The drugs, the beatings from their boyfriends/husbands, the pimping, the relatively short lives of b/g's, the countless farang/thai offspring are just to name a few.

 

The government whilst wanting to turn thailand into a country to visit by all the family know that a good proportion of their money comes from tourism (60%+?) and whilst constantly make it harder for the industry to operate also turn a blind eye.