gobbledonk Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hi All, Whether you are in IT or not, chances are that you have clients who dont quite comprehend the fact that you cant *easily* put a Helipad on the 30th floor of a 40-floor tower when the plumbers have just finished connecting the pipes for the Olympic pool in the penthouse .. The whole 'build software like skyscrapers' ideal is largely passe these days - things change and we do have to bolt new stuff onto the old - but I never cease to be amazed by how clueless some of the key decision-makers in my organisation are. Are things any better in your neck of the woods, or are we all living in a Dilbert cartoon ? Gotta go - I can hear the pointy-haired manager down the hallway, and it doesnt sound promising. Cheers, Artie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hi, Oh, the stories I could tell about our biggest client. Here's one: Wednesday 2 weeks ago we get the order to completely redesign one of the client's website and get it done before the conference starts on Tuesday. We do a design which gets approved by the client on Friday 7pm, i.e. after we have all left already. We start building the site on Monday and get most of it done (it's mostly dynamic content pulled from a database). That evening another email "Who approved that design, everybody says it's ugly" (it wasn't). "Uh... well, you did!" Start pretty much from scratch again. Oh, and we are still waiting for a bunch of content at this point. We get a new design to the guy doing the presentation at the conference and continue working on the site. We are now told it *has* to be done by Friday as it will be mentioned in national newspapers. We get it mostly done despite getting daily design changes. All of a sudden it's Monday that it will be mentioned in the newspapers, so with a bit more time we improve the look of it by adding some little touches here and there. Monday afternoon there is a really nice looking site. On Tuesday we get another email, change the menu tabs, remove the background graphic, change the sidemenu, remove this bar and change all headers. We start the work, new tabs based on the client's draft look crap, entire site looks less attractive than before. Send of the design to the client, he doesn't like. More major changes follow. It's been 2 weeks now and I think 80% of our time has been spend on changing things. Clients can be fun, especially if they have no idea what they want and change decisions at the drop of a hat. At least we are paid on a monthly basis Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavanami Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Two things I found out, mostly the "hard way"... 1. customer management, they have to be managed or they will soon be out of control. 2. mostly have to "tell" the customer what they want as they often can not decide themselves. Hey...the game is always on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks guys - I guess there really is safety in numbers :smirk: KS' project scenario and Cavanami's points about the customers needing to be managed really sum it all up for mine. 'I'll know it when I see it' and 'just put together a prototype and we'll take it from there' all sound warning bells in my head now, and the latest project has many of the telltale signs of management repeating the mistakes of the past. In the end analysis, its all good as long as the cheques are signed on time and we all get paid. Keep smiling, Artie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 KS & I discussed this previously. Customer management is the key. I work in manufacturing, but the process should be basically the same. A document outlining the deliverables is what should be quoted. Any changes to that deliverable is chargable and quoted upon request with a negotiated new delivery date. Design review meetings are scheduled at appropriate points and the work done to date is signed off. Any changes after signoff are chargeable and delivery date is adjusted. Design changes are your friend. You make your money here, if managed correctly. Otherwise you lose your ass. A design freeze date is agreed upon where the program is deemed unchangeable and goes on to the intent of the original deliverable plus previous changes. Of course, one can back down and do chargeable changes, but those changes are much more expensive than previous ones, and the delivery date is modified yet again. Not generally recommended -- better to finish this project and do another for changes past this date. This is where a good program manager, one who understand the *basics* of the engineering, but more importantly is a good customer "schmoozer" and salesman is key. I find that most software houses are very deficient in this area. If you do not follow these basics, then som nam na. Sorry, but a fact. You cannot let the customer walk all over you thinking that this is good service. It's not. You do them a favour by adhering to the above, otherwise projects spiral out of control and no one is happy. And yes, I am available to manage projects for you. But I ain't cheap LOL! Cheers, SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It's hard when the deliverables are always 100% non tangible. I mean even a print document has some sense of finality that a website never will. Clearly there is an element of educating the IT client as sign offs are required. As long as you are billing fairly for these non stop changes and you can keep your staff from going crazy then it's good business. I am a software project manager by trade and yes my thai work experience is driving me insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Hi, SD is right of course, but I think Buddha brings up a good point. There is nothing really tangible and it is *very* difficult to explain to a customer (with no IT knowledge) that changing the buttons on a page is not a 5 minute job (or at least may not be). And yes, I agree that a good project manager makes all the difference. Things were fine when we had one, but the client did not want to work with him and figures he can do it himself. The result is that from a very structured approach we are back to several people at the client side all sending us emails with complete disregard to workload and priorities. Obviously we have pointed out to the client that the current mess is a direct result of it, but he won't listen. Oh well, like I said, we're getting paid a fixed monthly amount so we don't really care much. Although it is annoying to see a really nice website reduced in quality drastically because the client can't make up his mind. Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibblies Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Start charging by the hour and then it won't bother you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It's hard when the deliverables are always 100% non tangible. I mean even a print document has some sense of finality that a website never will. Clearly there is an element of educating the IT client as sign offs are required. Ya see, to me that goes back to client management, and yes, client education. You cannot agree to a nebulous deliverable. Impossible to do and in the end no one is happy. You first must nail down what is wanted, then work to that goal. That is where good salespeople and project managers, working together (or maybe the same person), come in. If future expansion is required, treat the program as many steps, but each step MUST be a measurable goal and must be a seperate project. It all goes back to metrics (MY favourite word, not Gaddies). If you cannot measure it, you cannot deliver it. If you cannot measure it, how do you know when it is done? If you cannot measure it, how do you know that this version is better than the last? I have heard all these arguments against this before, in product design. They were as fallicious there as they are here. Yes, it is hard work to get a product design document with 100% measureable deliverables, but it must be done before any project gets off the ground or you are courting diaster. And it is your own fault if that happens without such a document. With such a document, everyone knows what is expected. Managed expectations is the key to a happy customer and repeat business. Cheers, SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 Hi, SD, I would love for you to have a talk to our client Everything you say makes perfect sense, but if the client utterly refuses to acknowledge these issues you are left with only 2 choices: you go with the flow and keep making changes when he comes up with them, or you walk away from the project. Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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