US Navy Returns to Cambodia

[Flashermac]

Nah, ya can't believe a Marine recruiter. They'll even tell you about getting to go to Paris ... instead of Parris Island.

 

 

 

[Julian2]

I'm surprised that Japan got off as comparatively lightly as it did. And of course most of the Soviet deaths are attributed to Stalin's incompetence (and lack of caring). Civilians starved or froze because Stalin didn't get them food or clothing.

 

Odd that they list no US civlian deaths. 68 were killed in the Pearl attack and a family was killed by a firebomb balloon in Washington state. Apparently the many American merchant seaman deaths don't count? But the big problem is the Philippines, which were an American "commonwealth" and plenty of civilians died in the Philipinnes!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_massacre

I looked at several sites Flash, most of them were ballpark figures anyway, hard to count in a lot of cases. Interesting what you say about merchant seamen, many thousands gave their lives, not only Americans, with little recognition. A mate of mine made many trips to Vietnam in the 60's and 70's, once coming under fire in the Saigon River with out a medal to show for it.

I'm a bit of a student of the war in the Philippines, many think that the Manila Massacre was committed by troops not under Tomoyuki Yamashita's command as he had ordered all regiments to withdraw to the Luzon Cordilera, to ready for McArthur's advance, before the murders; which were committed by Naval marines and deserters.

The fight between McArthur and Yamashita never really got underway, the Japanese general surrendering at the direct order of the Emperor. McArthur had him shot less than a year after the war ended. His execution of Masahura Homma, the victor of Corregidor, was also controversial.

[Flashermac]

I'm aware of that. The execution of Yamashita is one thing about the "war crime" trials that bothers me. It appears too much like Big Mac was getting revenge, which is the way many Japanese today view it too.

 

But that holds true of Nuremberg too. Right from the beginning, it was decided that alleged Allied war crimes could NOT be investigated. One of my unie profs had been a military observor at Nuremberg. He told us he felt that most of the Soviet judges deserved to be on trial just as much as the defeated Nazis did. As I recall, Franz von Papen was acquitted of all charges against him, but the Soviets wanted to sentence him to prison anyway!

 

The post-WWII war crime trials set a very bad precedent of having the victors try the losers, without having to assume any responsibility for their own war time deeds.

 

p.s. I met a survivor of the Bataan Death March. He told me the POWs had been so poorly treated that about half of the survivors were dead within 5 years of their release.

 

 

 

[Old Hippie]

What I heard was from Vietnamese people, not from fellow travelers. What you heard was obviously from people that betrayed their own people and helped foreign invaders rape their daughters and kill their families.

 

 

Maybe that is how you as an outsider see it, but to those people in south, they saw it differently. I will point out, it is/was their country, and they had an interest in the outcome, you however do not.

 

Vietnam in hind sight might have been wrong/mistake etc...hind sight is always 20/20. The worst part of Vietnam comes now, as we failed to learn from it, and are indeed repeating it in Iraq, and maybe soon in Iran.

 

I have been to Hanoi, short visit for a wedding, was greeted warmly, and got no anti American bullshit. Frankly, I was expecting it. Also got no Anti American shit in Cambodia...Oddly, I have gotten it from Euros, many from countries who's side we were on, and the Neutral countries...equally as odd, I seldom if ever get it from Germans...

 

To the German's credit, they answered for what went on, some acknowledged it, and went on with life, hopefully determined not to allow it to be repeated. Sadly, my adopted father, a native of Austria, says he sees the same hysteria sweeping up Some segments of America...the right wing/neo con fervor he says was present in Germany...ultimately what he says destroyed it.

 

While it is true that The USA has brought us Marcos, the Shah and a few others, it is odd how no one wants to take credit(or gets blamed) for the Ayyotolla Khomeni, Ho Chi Mhin Pol Pot and a few others...

 

True, the USA "empire" will fall, they all do. Will you feel better being bitches to the Chinese and Indians? How will you feel when they try to dominate the world?

 

Also agree with the poster (Zombie?) that the USA needs to start planning, and try to get shit in order...it is sad that we are indeed being destroyed from within. Oil may well not be *as signifigant* in a few years, as many countries move towards Nuclear power. We should smarten up.

[Hugh_Hoy]

the Afrika Corp was behind barbed wire in North Africa, well thrashed my Montgomery, and the second team were getting their lumps in Russia when the Americans invaded Europe. (With a little help from the Poms, Canadians, Poles, Frogs et al.)

 

LOL ! Okay Julian 2. Whatever you say, even though the way you write it is not entirely correct and would be misleading to somebody other than one who is not very steeped in history. Just a couple of questions (maybe more). Is it true that the "thrashing" of Rommel by Monty was a team effort that also included Americans and Canadians? Is it true that Rommel, by all accounts a very shrewd and skillful commander, might have prevailed if not for lack of support? Is it true that the British beat the Americans in the invasion of Europe? (If so, by how many hours/days?) I guess those letters from my dad to my mom weren't posted from the desert after all; he was probably down in Costa Rica downing beer and chasing chichitas. And the story about how his unit would invite his Brit colleagues over for dinner (real food; ie. steak) were bullshit he just thought up was probably b.s. too.

 

And last question: what does all this have to do with a U.S. Navy ship docking in Cambodia? :grin:

 

 

[Flashermac]

Also helped that the Allies were reading Rommel's communications and knew what he was going to do in advance.

 

p.s. "And last question: what does all this have to do with a U.S. Navy ship docking in Cambodia?"

 

The Afrika Korps was in Africa. I'm sure the USN ship has some African American sailors on board. Thus the connection should be obvious.

 

[Hugh_Hoy]

Got me again. Here I was thinking that some Khmer-Americans were fighting in the desert with the U.S. Navy.

 

HH

[Flashermac]

The Aquamarines???

 

 

[Hugh_Hoy]

"

Sure the money helped but paying it back after the war bankrupted the UK for decades.

 

Another good one Julian. :grin: The money "helped"? England was basically broke at the time the lend-lease program was approved. By most accounts, 30 billion USD worth of goods were provided to the UK during the war...at a discount of 90% !!! So, the actual indebtedness was about 3 billion USD. Payments were scheduled to be made over 50 years beginning in 1950 (FIVE friggin' years after the war ended). And the loans were made with a whopping 2% interest. I can see why a country might not be in a hurry to repay such a loan. If I could get money at 2% from our government without being worried about meeting a payment schedule, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to repay it either. I suspect that if you were to query most Americans, they wouldn't even know about the details of the program or give a crap. I mean, 4 billion USD is chicken feed, especially when it comes to our Allies. Now, China... :grin:

 

HH

[Sukhumvit]

And last question: what does all this have to do with a U.S. Navy ship docking in Cambodia? :grin:

 

 

You brought WW2 into the thread.

 

Memory not what it used to be?

Perhaps your recollection of history is also a little confused?

 

History lesson 101:-

The Second World War began in September 1939.

The United States Goverment intervened post 7th December 1941.

In the intervening period of 2 years 3 months the British army were fighting for the survival of the country. Those were the days of the few, the RAF, who held out against massed Luftwaffe attacks and tried to prevent them bombing all of our cities to smithereens.

 

This was the time that my mate's mum was bombed and she was entombed, lucky to survive. A parachute mine dropped on my dad's street and took out his neighbours. My dad told me only recently that the Ack Ack guns based in the local park at the bottom of their street fired that many shells at the German planes that the shrapnel used to rain down on the slate rooves like hailstones.

 

Many in the US administration were happy to watch the UK get the shit kicked out of it, including lovely old Joe Kennedy. We took it and didn't whine. We're not whining now. Nobody with any sense has anything but admiration for the heroes who gave their lives to liberate Europe. That includes GIs.

 

I've got American friends and like America as a country. You do have a fucked up administration though. It's primary aim seems to be... what? I don't know. It sure as hell don't seem to care about the lives of its people. Sending all those guys to Iraq for what? As a diversion to avoid dealing with the real tough topics at home? I don't know. I'm sure you don't either. And, I don't think your government knows!