My Lai bastard

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

"I've also heard tales of Dutch troops shooting down Indonesian villagers during that independence war."

 

I'm quite sure this happened. One of the neighbors of my parents fought in this war and he categorically refuses to talk about what happened. Even got angry when people tried discussing it.

 

Sanuk!

 

[Sakai]

Wars are never clean, colonial wars, no matter if Indonesian independence one or Philippine-American war, are most of the time worse.

 

 

[Flashermac]

Guerrilla wars are especially nasty, since troops get frustrated and sometimes take that out on civilians. My home in the States was such an area during the American Civil War. The Union troops declared the guerrillas "outlaws" and shot them whenever captured. In retaliation, the guerrillas often killed their own prisoners. This angered the Feds, who burned down many homes and even small towns, figuring the locals supported the guerrillas. My own family got burned out. In fact, many of the locals just wished both sides would go away and leave them alone. That was also the feeling I got in Vietnam - most people weren't pro-Saigon or pro-Hanoi. They were pro-peace.

 

 

[Flashermac]

An interesting site:

 

 

 

<< On his first patrol Morton torpedoed and sank three Japanese ships, one of them a troop transport with thousands aboard. After surfacing, Morton, who had an "overwhelming, biological hatred of the enemy", appeared determined to kill every one of the thousands floating there.

 

The Japanese in the lifeboats and in the water were subjected to more than an hour of shelling with 4-inch and 20mm rounds which ripped through timbers, flesh and bone, staining the sea red and attracting sharks. It was a total massacre.

 

Morton made no attempt in his subsequent report to hide the massacre. On arrival at Pearl Harbour, Wahoo was flying a pennant with the boat`s slogan "Shoot the sunza bitches" printed on it!!!

 

Morton claimed to have sunk 5 Japanese ships totalling 32,000 tons and became an instant hero in the US submarine service. Admiral Lockwood christened Wahoo the one-boat wolf pack and most unusually released the story of the patrol to the press. All US submarine activities were normally kept secret to avoid giving the enemy any useful information. Not for nothing was the submarine arm was known as the "Silent Service".

 

The massacre of the survivors from the transport was not reported, nor questioned by the US Navy Staff. Morton was decorated with the "Navy Cross" medal. >>

 

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/3166/

 

[Sakai]

Yes but Morton was an incredibly efficient submarine commander aboard the wahoo.

Interestignly the main witness was O'Kane (then second in command and later commander of the Tang).

 

The problem is, while other submarine war crimes were committed against civilians (usually from transpor ships), this killing was executed against Imperial army soldiers stranded in the water.

 

Legally, the Hague convention bans killing of shipwrecked people, but I agree that as they were Imperial army soldiers, Morton did what he had to do.

 

As a kind of analogy, was firing at the small evacuation crafts at Dunkirk? Or straffing Japanese troop convoys at Guadalcanal that different?

 

This is tricky IMO as this case involves Japanese soldiers who could have fought another day.

 

All the other cases involve the killing of civilians.

The best case IMO is Miers, the commander of the HMS Torbay.

 

Double standard as Heinz Wilhelm Eck was executed for the war crime his U-boot committed.

 

Of course, the champions all categories for war crimes were the Imperial navy submarines.

 

 

 

[Flashermac]

As to slaughtering the Japanese Army survivors, if it had been the other way around - a Japanese submarine slaughtering defenceless American GIs - the Nipponese folks would have been tried, convicted and executed. It sorts of depends on whether your side wins the war or not. Only the losers get tried.

 

<< However, when Miers' report reached Admiral Horton in London, the Flag Officer Submarines was concerned about German reprisals, and wrote to the Board of Admiralty: "As far as I am aware, the enemy has not made a habit of firing on personnel in the water or on rafts even when such personnel were members of the fighting services; since the incidents referred to in Torbay`s report, he may feel justified in doing so." The Admiralty wrote a strong letter to Miers instructing him not to repeat the practices of his last patrol. >>

 

They don't say it was wrong to execute prisoners, just that it was likely to result in retaliation.

 

 

p.s. << The Soviets contrived to make deadly propaganda on 26 September 1939 when the Soviet submarine SC-103 fired torpedoes at the Soviet ship "Metallist" in the Baltic Sea near the Estonian coast. That was done to provoke anti-Polish feelings abroad, and to manufacture an excuse to accuse the Polish submarine Orzel of barbarity. >>

 

Reminds one of Hitler's faked "Polish" attack on the radio station in Gleiwitz, Germany - with the German convicts shot wearing Polish uniforms to provide the bodies. "Great minds" thought alike.

 

 

[Sakai]

Both the Brandeburg regiment and the NKVD loved to use such "schemes"...

 

And yes, winners always write immediate history.

 

Still coming from the British Admiralty I find the lack of punishment shocking.

 

 

 

[Old Hippie]

"...... damn it, Sakai! You've got me bitching about arsehole occifers again..."

 

 

Hey, I was an Officer! A mustanger however, so "I was different!"

 

On Calley...no ideas, I think a lot had to do with where the orders really came from and who else may have been involved. What little I remember of the time, the country was divided, some against the war and all it stood for, and some for the war...very little middle road.

 

I have met some Vietnam vets who did think Calley did the right thing...others did not. By many accounts, he was considered a total fuck up as an officer. I won't excuse his actions, but I can under certain circumstances, understand them.

 

As for war tribunals/war criminals etc...yes, the US put this one in the window. Would they have covered it up if they could have? most likely yes.

 

Regarding WWII, I seem to recall a book "Other Casualties" (?) which told of 10,000+ being killed in Europe POST WWII...supposedly ordered by Ike. A purge of sorts.

 

All I can add from my own war experience (NOT VN) is that I agree with the statement "The first casualty of war is always the truth..."

[Bangkoktraveler]

Calley was a fuckwit because he got caught.

[Flashermac]

Calley was born a fuckwit and will die a fuckwit. He barely made it through high school, couldn't get into a university, and went instead to an open admission community college - where he flunked out. He couldn't even hold a job for very long. So what does the army decide? "Hey, let's commission the guy! He'd make a good platoon leader."

 

 

 

p.s. Why was it always the Americal Division that effed up in Vietnam? The Funny Fucked-up Fourth Division seemed to get the dumb officer. Americal got the homicidal ones.