baa99 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The bailout of Greece is really a bailout of the German and French banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 So, despite a couple World Wars to stop them Germany did end up ruling Europe? lol. And there was a period where it could be argued that Japan dominated Asia and a large chunk of the Pacific, economically. Both countries were rebuilt with money from the US after WWII, and both picked that ball up and ran with it. I'm sure things werent particuarly rosy for much of the 50s, and they arent particularly 'rosy' now compared to the 80s and 90s, but look at the billions being poured into total baseketcases elsewhere (including Africa) for no appreciable improvement. Whatever corruption and waste exist in the German and Japanese systems, they clearly have a handle on productivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 And there was a period where it could be argued that Japan dominated Asia and a large chunk of the Pacific, economically. Both countries were rebuilt with money from the US after WWII, and both picked that ball up and ran with it. I'm sure things werent particuarly rosy for much of the 50s, and they arent particularly 'rosy' now compared to the 80s and 90s, but look at the billions being poured into total baseketcases elsewhere (including Africa) for no appreciable improvement. Whatever corruption and waste exist in the German and Japanese systems, they clearly have a handle on productivity. Actually, nation building only worked in Germany and Japan. All recent examples, especially Iraq and Afghanistan are complete failures. The reasons why it worked so well: both countries have relatively homogenic society (religion, ethnicity, etc.). Both countries had a well functioning bureaucracy the Americans could put in use immediately, both countries had experience in a democratic system (even though the German system ended in chaos already before 1933). Now have a look at nation building in the past 50 years and it becomes immediately clear why all other efforts didn't and don't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 both countries have relatively homogenic society (religion, ethnicity, etc.). Both countries had a well functioning bureaucracy the Americans could put in use immediately, both countries had experience in a democratic system (even though the German system ended in chaos already before 1933). not to forget both countries weren't allowed to spend more than a certain amount of money on their military for x amount of years, and had the brains to invest that money in infrastructure, technology, employments etc. They didn't/couldn't feel the "need" to waste billions on wasteful military operation while their citzens starved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 both countries have relatively homogenic society (religion, ethnicity, etc.). Both countries had a well functioning bureaucracy the Americans could put in use immediately, both countries had experience in a democratic system (even though the German system ended in chaos already before 1933). not to forget both countries weren't allowed to spend more than a certain amount of money on their military for x amount of years, and had the brains to invest that money in infrastructure, technology, employments etc. They didn't/couldn't feel the "need" to waste billions on wasteful military operation while their citzens starved. After the destruction of WWII the Germans as well as the Japanese put all their strength in rebuilding their countries. Just think of "Ground Zero" on an extremely huge scale. And you are right military spending was low for the first decade. Two more remarks: The Western allies, especially the Brits and the Americans sent really good personell to Germany for the implement a Western Democracy and to set up the "Marshall Plan". A lot of post war careers were started, because of the influence and the decisions of the allied personel on the ground (like of the later chancellor Konrad Adenauer). They did not send those private companies like the KBR f@ckers who took over governmental job in Iraq and Afghanistan and who wasted/stole billions of USD while setting up crap infrastructures (even US soldiers got electrocuted and killed while showering, because extremely low quality installations). And the irony of history was, that especially the Russians and French dismantled whole factories and rebuild them in their country. The Germans were forced to set up new factories using the latest technology. Soon the Germany factories (especially heavy industry) were much more productive than those of the victors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbledonk Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I just dont want to see Europe go down the toilet for 10 years - how much longer do we need to read that we are 'on the precipice' ? Fear and volatility go hand in hand - duh - but I'm not seeing any indication that the cycle is coming to an end. Even the Great Depression had a beginning and an end - this just keeps dragging on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexi Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 The best idea IMHO would be to go back to the old system where each country had its own currency and was responsible for its own tax + spending.The euro twits have dug themselves into a giant hole which they are now getting deeper into by going down the road of more fiscal integration.Why would sovereign countries give up their democratic rights to a bunch of beaurocrats in Berlin ?It won`t work and will be a source of problems for decades to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa99 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 bureaucrats are in brussels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldFun Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 bavaria isn't german & franconia isnt part of bavaria (although the map says so) make your own conclusions so how does the swiss make it all work beautifully with their 3 parts? I guess the trick is being in EU/schengen, but outside the eu and eur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 the Swiss were largely left out of WW2 right? Also, isn't Belgium an example of a polyglot if not multi-ethnic country that rebuilt after the war? Speaking of countries who rebuilt post war, South Korea has to be mentioned. They are a G20 nation and have a fantastic infrastructure. My uncle fought in the war and large parts of the population were living in mud huts, even in the capital. I saw a great article recently comparing South Korea to Uganda who had the same GNP about 50 years ago. http://www.independent.co.ug/the-last-word/the-last-word/5667-africa-versus-east-asia Africa's collective failure to develop seems to have several causes both internal and external factors to blame. Credit to the Germans and Japanese though, they took advantage of thier opportunity and although its taking them longer, the Chinese have progressed especially in the last 20 years or so. Russia is another multi-ethnic and polyglot country and one has to wonder if they were not better off with a Peter the Great type of leader to drag them into modernization. The communist leaders were corrupt, cruel and incompetant. Communism woul have eventually failed but I think if they ran the country under communism with some integrity as well as not look to expand their doctrine by which they would have saved trillons on military expenditures, they'd have made greater strides. Yes, they felt they had to because of America but with the bomb as well as history on thier side (Napolean and the Nazis proved an invasion of Russia is folly) there was no way they'd be invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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