Goodthaigirl Posted June 2, 2002 Report Share Posted June 2, 2002 Cent, Thalenoi, and everybody. RE: the thread '6 months with a BG' http://board.nanaplaza.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=81650&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=all&vc=1 At first I decided the leave this issue as it is. But something keeps bugging me. My questions was not answered. I asked Thalenoi many questions but he just brushed it off. I have asked Cent to clarify his comment 'In the future please leave the "feminist" rhetoric home when you post. But I haven't got any reply. Cent, Please tell me which part of my posts constitutes feminist ideas ! I'm waiting for your explanation of what is feminism as well. May be Khun Sanuk should put the rule of 'no fenimism ' on this board too ?????? It seems to me I was fighting with two moderators here To everybody, I've seen that some of you guys still read the thread. Any comments from you are welcome. GTG PS. I made a change concerning feminist question. Actually I had asked Cent before he closed the thread but haven't got any answer. Sorry for the mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thalenoi Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Ok GTG, Can you summarise your questions here please? On my side I don't want to make public my whole private life on this board, I hope I do have the right to some privacy. I wanted to share a positive experience with an ex-bg, because so much disastrous stories and negative experiences are mentionned here. Yes, many bg's are after our money because it's their living and many men on this board go to Thailand for sex mainly. But there is more than sex to it and that surprises most of us. Many first time visitors don't go to Thailand for the sex in the first place, but discover the pleasures of bar life "unexpectedly". I would say you go for your first drink and end up in bed with your first bg before you know it, whilst telling yourself "what an idiot I am". And the next day it is to late, a thai female changed your life for ever. GTG, you referred to an other thread where I mentionned I am married. So what is your point? What do you expect to gain with that? I can tell what ever lie I want about myself here, who is going to care? You? But I will not do so. (bullshitting I mean) Be assured I will never ever marry anyone a second time, You need to know why also? I would very much like to spend more than 50% of my time with my gf in Thailand, but many obligations make this impossible for the time being. Do I really have to spread this out on this board because you need to know? Suffice to say I have had just one female in my bed the last 365 nights and I talked to her on the phone less than hour ago with a distance of 10.000 km between us. Is that enough for a confession or do you need more? Calling me "Cheap" and what % of my income is devoted to "her" is irrelevant and insulting. I don't see what my financial resources and obligations have to do with the quality of how I treat her, or do you have an other meaning? I also tried to make you understand that your "cheap" comment (she 's cheap) was unacceptable, then you turned that comment around, me being cheap. I am the only one to know what my financial investement represents and am surprised you dare insisting on that topic, whilst you asked recently BassGod to be respectful mentionning Buddha. I am not sure there is something that would offend me more, I asked you to stop that, but you continued, seemingly not understanding what's wrong with it. I asked the moderator to close the thread because it seemed the only way to stop the offences. Guessing how she feels when we have sex (taking care or counting baht) is irrespectfull towards a person I nurse. I have collected sufficient information on her, communicated, listened to her for me to trust her, to categorise her under the few human beings who merit I take risks for. Your statement that she is risking more financially and/or emotionally than myself again is something I feel over the line, you have no clue what is at stake here both for me and her, and again I have no need to divulge my personnal concerns here. But I will accept further comments here. You were judging people, I can not accept that. I am still waiting for apologies. I am In Zurich right now and booked on flight SR134 Zurich-Montreal june 4th and on LH744 Frankfurt-Bangkok 25 june and I am travelling alone and the woman I am married with does not live in Zurich, nor Montreal nor Bangkok. I left Chumpon 19 days ago and I miss my gf. Now you can all say I got crazy, and you're all right.... Cent, what about moving this to "relationships"? A more appropriate place? And last, comments from all please, let this not turn into an other GTG/thalenoi argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hi GTG, I have left the thread alone after Cent closed it on Thalenoi?s request, but it kept niggling at me. I have at several occasions since wanted to re-open it, but felt I had to respect Thalenoi?s wishes on it. I think you have energy to debate the ethical aspects of Falang/TG connections, but agree that maybe it would be better to do so on ?Relationships? where such a thread has recently been started. Cent, if you want to shift this to Relationships, OK. Nevertheless, I want to comment here on the last two posts in the ?six months with?? thread, closed by Cent. -------------------------------------------------- GTG, I think maybe where you went wrong was to personalize your comments too much. You don?t know enough about Thalenoi and his relation with his woman to jump to the conclusions you did. Yes, maybe there are men in his situation that are ?exploiting the women?, that are double dipping by having a wife and mia noi, that are cheap and only thinking about themselves, and not about the interest of the TW (=Thai woman. I think since we are here mainly talking about women rather than girls, a new abbreviation may be in place). But, there are without doubt also men who are not like that, who genuinely have the interest of the TW at heart, and who are genuinely trying to build a lasting relationship. I think it was your judgmental-ness and generalizing that got someone to use the term feminism. Just because some men exploit women (I admit, many do) doesn?t mean all men do. In some situations, the situational aspects (Race and ethnic difference, difference in background, education, wealth etc) create problems that cannot immediately be overcome, not even by the most willing and helpful man or woman. All you can do is work on it. I like your contributions here, and your questioning us men, challenging us to look beyond the surface, to try and understand ?her? side of the situation. But please don?t personalize and judge too much, give us sometimes also the benefit of the doubt. T: >??? Total Bg's in Thailand is -1. GTG: Mia noi + 1 All of your demand creation of prostitution all those year coming to shag Thai farm girls has resulted in more than 1 ex- farm girls turning bgs I would think. May be db can help with his statistics !< I think this illustrates the crux of the argument, and the difference in your positions. The point you made about ?mia noi +1? hit a nerve with me, long before T replied to you yesterday. He appears to genuinely believe he is in the process of helping a woman leave the bar environment behind, and start a new chapter in her life. That may be correct, or it may be wishful thinking. Only time will tell. It is sometimes a nice thing we men tell ourselves, that we are ?helping the women out of the bar?. It makes us feel good about ourselves. Look at ?Educating Rita?, and read Pygmalion, or watch ?My Fair Lady? the film version. I have been there and thought that?s what I did. (Read my ?Letters from Issaan? on this group) . I met ?Nok? two years ago in Voodoo, saw her every few months for a week or two, helped her when she said she wanted to stop working the bar, paid for her cost of living and study cost while she trained as a beautician etc etc. But in that process, she started to see herself as my ?Mia Noi?. It took me a long time to accept that, that wasn?t my original intention. I wanted to help her become financially independent from bar work, by assisting her to get a ?better? job, not to make her dependent on me. We tried living together for a few months, but in the end it didn?t work out. When she finished her training (Top class school), she concluded that working as a beautician isn?t as lucrative as working the bar. I still don?t know which of the two she is doing now. (Gummigut, have you seen her around by any chance?) She announced to her family the money would stop coming. Next day, her sister was sent to BKK by the family, to start work in Voodoo. Maybe I helped one woman out of the bar, but the family had become so used to the income, they decided they couldn?t do without it. Total BG in Thailand: ?1 Maybe (Nok) +1certain (I saw the sister at Voodoo later) Sum total BG (equal to or larger than 0). Not what I intended. So, in my personal case, your argument about us creating the demand, and therefore resulting in ex farm girls turning to BGs, makes some sense. Whetehr or not that is a good thing depends on where you stand. Maybe the rest should be discussed in this ethical question thread, in ?Relationships?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Phoenix and Thalenoi, I can't find a way in my Admin section to "move" a thread intoanother forum. I think KS may have to do this,I'm not sure. I'll ask him and see what needs to be done. GTG, I will reply to your post later when I have more time. Busy lately, and haven't had the time. And yes, I do want to discuss this with you, and any others who decide to join in. I just ask that you please discuss this less "personally" than the previous thread that was closed. Also I think you didn't realize that indeed farangs take being called cheap as an insult sometimes and don't like it at all, and calling a woman a farang has strong feelings for is very insulting to most. I'd also like to ask you to re-read the earlier thread, and my post. It seems you are focusing your discussion more on Thalenoi in a personal way, and you aren't seeming to take a lot of the good posts by others here into the discussion or your own thoughts on the subject. I asked you a few questions in my post, and posed a scenario which I wanted you to think on and answer, which you seem to have ignored. Go back and read my post and others, and answer the/my questions, and I'll be glad to further discuss these subjects with you in more detail. Cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hi GTG, I have to agree here. Thalenoi has made a honest attempt to create a good life for Mee, if she so chooses to live it. She can leave anytime she wants if she feels the need, for whatever reason. It sounds like he has been very up-front and truthful with her. He is also very committed to her, unlike a traditional mia-noi situation. He houses her, feeds her, and buys her things. Sounds like she doesn't have to lift a finger. He has stated he does not fool around, and has even agreed to give up beer with dinner (now THAT"S commitment ) If she is getting the short end of the stick here, I'm not seeing it. Would be a whole different story if he were making promises to her that were lies. Mee knows what both sides of the coin are. She has chosen to stay with Thalenoi, as opposed to going back to bar. It's her choice. Not yours, not mine, not his, not anybodies. I must agree also that you have made assumptions about both Mee and Thalenoi that were not in good taste. You cannot possibly know that these are not two people who truly care for each other, and want to be with each other. He originally posted because he wanted to share a success story with everyone. The only negatives drawn into this story were your suspicions, but there is no basis for any of it. You're just assuming you know what the story is, who these people are, and basing your thoughts around that. To put it simply......you're stereotyping. Mee as a bargirl, and Thalenoi as a punter. I've always thought it better to give the benefit of the doubt when all the facts are not known. Just a thought. See you in "ask a farang" HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 >To put it simply......you're stereotyping. Mee as a bargirl, and Thalenoi as a punter. Isn't Thailand a rather rigid class society? In that case stereotyping people is really the way to structure the world, so having this happen in this case should not be at all surprising. Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 I'm not convinced class distinction and stereotyping is the same thing. Class distinction is usually determined by financial/education situation. Although, most high and mighty Thai's stereotype Isaan Thai's as being low life......at least in part, due to their financial/education situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 >I'm not convinced class distinction and stereotyping is the same thing I see I was too brief... In a real class society everybody knows their own class and is able to quickly determine the class of others. Thais can do this in some fractions of a second when they decide who will initiate the wai on meeting. Every class has (mostly unspoken) rules for acceptable behaviour and it is unthinkable to do anything else, unless you are a total rogue and outcast. Once you have determined the class of a person, you will just know how he or she will behave both in the short term and in the long term. It is inconceivable that any personal qualities might actually contribute for the better or the worse. Actually any deviation from the expected is for the worse, since it will upset the smooth functioning of the society. Life is so simple when you don't have to invest time and personal effort into getting to know people to be able to know how they will behave and which kind of treatment they expect and will make them happy. And it really works, because everybody has bought into the same code of conduct. But this really makes you think about other people in terms of stereotypes. Once I know that you are a bargirl, it is 'obvious' how you behave and will forever behave, because the class society has the built-in assumption that each class has a proper and 'natural' behaviour. Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 wsvinja, I understand what your saying. Is it your understanding that most Thai's operate under this doctrine to that high an extent? HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 >I understand what your saying. Is it your understanding that most Thai's operate under this doctrine to that high an extent? I have no clue, actually. Anyway, it is not really a "doctrine", because it would not be conscious behaviour. It is a part of the culture in a country which people adopt 'by osmosis' well before they get any formal education. You seemed to be telling to GTG that she is stereotyping people as if it is a bad thing. Well, it may be that from a Western perspective. However, in a class society (if Thailand is one!) it would be the natural approach to these kinds of issues, so it is not a personal failing of GTG. Mixing with dubious farangs in cyberspace already shows that she is not really part of the traditional status quo. And sometimes stereotypes are quite useful. I'm going to believe in one when I'm in Thailand in June. If I see a bunch of noisy guys in football shirts, I'll steer clear of them. They might be wonderful people, but I don't want to be there if they turn out not to be. Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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