Crash999 Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Says Auricman: I am not a virologist, so I am dependent on the opinions of those who have worked in this field. Here are some quotes from people who have expertise in the field. (BTW, notice these are quotes after '91): .... Look, if you want worry about this mystical, magical virus, fine; live and let live. But I will confine my worries to real diseases such as heart disease, cancer (both kill about 500,000 people each year in the U.S.), etc. BTW, there are enough real STD's out there to warrant the use of a condom. I just think we should be realistic about our fears. I'm not going to go into this, because you're obviously only interested in supporting your views. If you do even the slightest amount of research (hint: Google) you'll see that the Duesberg's crew has been disproven time and time again. This 'mystical, magical' virus has already killed someone I know (though not a close friend), will shortly do the same to his wife, and has infected another couple- someone who unfortunately IS a close friend. If you don't believe that AIDS exists, then why not come here to Thailand and visit Father Joe's center. There you can meet men, women, and kids all dying from the disease. But you won't do that, will you, because you're only interested in spouting off info from certain websites and not interested in finding out the real truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Maybe you can dispute some researcher, but to dispute the simple numbers is no acceptable IMHO. From UNAIDS on THAILAND: Estimated number of adult and children living with HIV&AIDS, end of 2001. These estimates include all people with HIV infection, whether or not they have developed symptoms of AIDS, alive at the end of 2001: Adults and children: 670.000 Adult rate 1.8% Estimated number of deaths (children and adults) due to AIDS during 2001: 55.000 Estimated number of orphans (who have lost their mother or father or both parents to AIDS under age 15) at the end of 2001: 290.000 ----- This is the count for the whole population, AIDS within high risk groups like BGs are seemingly much higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auricman Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 So you want to say that AIDS does not exist and the people actually did not die from AIDS, but from a different diseases? Kamui, Actually, I do believe that people do die as a result of their immune systems being destroyed (other opportunistic diseases have an easy time when a person's body no longer can fight them off). The question is what destroyed their immune system? Gallo and his minions claim that the HIV virus is capable of doing this, while your countryman, Dr. Duesberg, a prominent virologist, says that this is not the way viruses have been known to operate. Dr. Duesberg uses the scientific method to backup his theories, whereas Gallo simply attacks and ridicules anyone who dares question his theory. Anytime Gallo's theories are found to not hold water, he simply changes the theory to meet the reality. It reminds me of the Pellagra situation. At the beginning of the 20th century in the American South the disease Pellagra was rampant. The medical establishment claimed it was an infectious disease because it was present in clusters, i.e. whole families had it. When a Dr. Goldberger investigated this disease, he found that the diet of the Southern poor people was largely corn (maize) which did not fulfill the requirement for niacin (vitamin B3), which resulted in their disease. When he published his results, the medical establishment ridiculed and denounced him as a quack. After his death, it was finally proved that Dr. Goldberger was right - Pellagra was caused by a Niacin deficiency, not a bacteria or virus. In the same way, I believe the medical community would serve us better if they would be open to the truth about AIDS rather than just taking the approach of ridiculing people who question their theories. Peace! Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Auricman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I would guess since you are so into this matter, that you are a scientific research specialist or in a very high level position of the medical science community, please do not tell us that you get all of your knowledge from the web Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 As Crash and others stated already. Duesburgs theory is completely outdated and disproven in many ways. Enclosed the confutation on his first three points: "Duesberg's first three parts to his theory rely on Koch's 1st, 2nd, 3rd postulates: (1) free virus is not detectable in most cases of AIDS; (2) virus can only be isolated by reactivating virus in vitro from a few latently infected lymphocytes among millions of uninfected ones; (3) pure HIV does not cause AIDS upon experimental infection of chimpanzees or accidental infection of healthy humans.3 First, we know Koch's postulates are more of historical interest than practical use. We know for a fact that people who receive HIV tainted blood become HIV+ and come down with AIDS. People who receive HIV-free blood don't get AIDS (unless they get HIV somewhere else). Thus, it is the HIV, not the transfusion, that causes AIDS. As far as HIV not being able to be isolated in 20-50% AIDS cases as Duesberg points out, we know that with a few recent exceptions, everyone with an AIDS-like immune deficiency tests positive for HIV. Everyone with HIV apparently gets AIDS eventually, after an average of 8 years. (There may be some exceptions for people having natural immunity.) In summary with his first three parts to his theory, Duesberg is trying to fit a new virus into old postulates." link (This is easy to read and understand, because this are thesis from students, but of course you will find more elaborate works on the net) If HIV is the cause of AIDS this is merely an academic dispute as long it does not affect peoples lives. If you show symptoms of AIDS after having some fun in Thailand and you are going to die maybe it does not matter to you if HIV is the cause of your death or another virus, except that hopefully you did not infect Thai women meanwhile. What worries me much more is that Duesburg theories already costs lives of many people especially of pregnant women and children in Africa. For me this really terrible. What happened: Duesburg convinced the president of South Africa Thabo Mbeki of his theory in 1999 with the consequence the during this time the support of pregnant women with AIDS has been stopped almost or delayed. Mbeki follow the theory that ATZ, one of the main medicines against AIDS does not heal but causes AIDS. Later Mbeki changed his stance, because the African women demanded to receive the medicine which definitely helps them and their babies to survive. Even Duesburg is of German origin, in my eyes he is a f**king a... His ideas costs the lives of the poorest and weakest people. Luckily Thailand started Anti-Aids campains much earlier than many other countries and recently I heard a Thai scientist developed a medicine against ADIS which is much better working than many western drugs. My question to you is: why do you support Duesburgs ultimately proven wrong ideas? Is it because you prefer not use condoms and need an excuse for your behaviour, or do you have sympathy for fundamentalist groups in the US who seem to like the idea that AIDS is merely a by-product of homosexuality and otherwise is problem of black people? Or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auricman Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 My question to you is: why do you support Duesburgs ultimately proven wrong ideas? Is it because you prefer not use condoms and need an excuse for your behaviour, or do you have sympathy for fundamentalist groups in the US who seem to like the idea that AIDS is merely a by-product of homosexuality and otherwise is problem of black people? Or something else? Kamui, Thanks for presenting some ideas rather than simply ridiculing me for believing that Duesberg is on to something. As I mentioned in a previous post, I do think the use of condoms is prudent because of the real risks involved from well known bacteria STD's. I don't agree with fundamentalist groups in the US that say it's God's punishment for Homosexuality, since Lesbians (generally) don't get it, only male homosexuals. I don't know enough about Africa to say anything about their situation other than to repeat what Duesberg and others have said, that their problems are rooted in malnutrition and other poverty lifestyles. No, I don't have any drum to beat for either side. I respect people who think logically, and Duesberg seems to me to take the logical, scientific approach, so I respect his views. [color:"green"] ultimately proven wrong ideas? [/color] I am not convinced that his ideas have been disproved, they only have been denounced. Other scientists have been denounced in the past, and later they have been proven to be right. (remember Galileo?) Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auricman Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I would guess since you are so into this matter, that you are a scientific research specialist or in a very high level position of the medical science community, please do not tell us that you get all of your knowledge from the web Actually, I am Dr. Duesbeg in disguise - NOT! No, I just have too much free time to browse the web and find all these opinions on various subjects. I don't know of anyone personally who has had AIDS, so I have no axe to grind, other than to urge people to seek the truth and not accept what the establishment says at face value. We have been lied to many times in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 O.k. I have held my tongue on this one as well. When it was originally posted, I suggested we delete it right away, as I felt the original poster was a troll. I say this because it was his first post, and seemed to be hyping a specific agenda. Mainly promoting fear. It also over stated the obvious, and thus appeared to be looking for a flame, or just trying to start something. In the passed, this topic has generated a rather heated debate, and in one or 2 cases people got booted because of it. To our credit, we responded rather well. To further support my opinion, I will point out that this poster joined the board a week or so before he made this post, it was his first post and TO DATE,HIS ONLY POST! I find it quite odd he would put up a post claiming he wanted to discuss the issue, and then never came back. In any event, I hope he didn't get the result he/she was looking for. Please keep this in mind before attacking eachother, which so far hasn;t happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 "...If you want to worry about people falling ill, worry about prostrate cancer or heart disease. Your friends will ultimately die from these very real afflictions, not as trendy I know, but the truth..." -STH To add to that, in the USA, more people die of the flu than aids, and the flu is easier to catch. Aids/HIV are real concerns, but they have been politicized, and that only serves a select few. The Gay community here has demanded and got extra funding for AIDS/HIV research, o.k. fine, but they did so at the expense of other research projects, that deal with deseases which are not preventable, AIDS/HIV is preventable! Just use a condom! (Yes, I know not 100% safe, or be manogomus). Yet here in SFO, there are groups of gay men who regularly host bareback parties, knowing one guy in the room has AIDS/HIV. The rational seems to be they find it erotic. These are the same type of assholes who smoke cigarettes all their lives, then sue the tobacco company when they start dying. If you are willing to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, you get what you want/deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whosyourdaddy Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 WOW All these guys saying AIDS is a myth. As my goverment and many others spend a shitload of tax-payers money on HIV research, I better ask for some of my taxes back this year. Thanks, I now can go out on the town with more money and a free for all additude. I just wish you told me this before I got married. I guess I missed the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.