Do you respect P4P women?

[Guest]

>>>A huge part of prostitutes come from the north, and probably the selling of daugthers is more common there than in Northeast. <<<

 

 

yeps, but the northeast has in the recent years caught up and overtaken rather well there.

my point there was basically that one should not read too much into statistics, such as of "poverty". they have not more than supportative value, and can be faked/misinterpreted rather easily. which is known to be done here at times...

also citing outdated statistics to describe today's "big thai picture" is a bit of a mistake, IMHO, espcially when other realities are simply ignored.

[JJsushi]

flyonzewall said:

>>>Punters need to wake up and look at the big Thai picture, to understand why they have access to such cheap sex. <<<

 

 

and i think that you should do that. the "big thai picture' is *not* just economics, especially not today. the big thai picture starts in the village, and in order to understand that one has to spend time there, and speak the language, and spend enough time there to get close (or go through some very tiring anthropological research papers).

 

You want anthropology? Fear, greed and hope, that's what motivates men.

You want to get more basic then i will reduce it to pleasure and pain.

 

 

 

 

>>>I am insistent on the point that economics/opportunity is the major reason many women go into prostitution.<<<

 

it may be on a superficial basis, but it does neclect some base contributing factors, such as ethical collapse, a fastly proceeding slumisation in the villages. just judging the world according to economics is not gonna explain much.

 

You use the term "sluminization" A slum usually denotes a squalid impoverished area. Sounds like an economics based term to me.

 

 

>>>It is known from my readings that the Northeastern provinces of Thailand are considered the poorest and have the least economic and educational opportunities.<<<

 

 

and that is only partially right.

20, 30 years ago that was the case, but after the communist insurgency vast amounts of money and development aid has been pushed into the northeast, also to avoid that a new insurgency starts from the most populous region of thailand. there are northern and southern provinces which are at least as "poor" as the northeast. there are northeastern provinces such as korat that are comparatively very rich, but still have vast amounts of prostitutes.

 

 

Sorry but is the wealth being shared in these areas? I recall your post speaking about the family farmers being cheated or hoodwinked into selling their farms by corporate interests, corrupt officials and BKK land speculators. I also remember your posts that speak of these landless farmers being a migratory workforce and heavily indebted. I also recall how you rail against the government forcing cheap debt on these uneducated farmers around election times to appease them. Is this the wealth of which you speak of?

 

Still sounds like economics to me.

 

A region can be economically wealthy but if that wealth does not trickle down to the masses in the region then how wealthy is it really?

 

 

 

an example i have brought up many times is ban jan in roi et province. a village which is infamous all over thailand for the vast amounts of prostitutes. this village is known for its bangkok style villas, has lots of money, and still the majority of girls enter prostitution - first in bangkok, and when they are old enough, in switzerland. according to your theory on solely povert driven prostitution the girls in that village should not be there where they are. but they are. there must be a bit more than just basic economics in the play there to explain the phenomenon of prostitution here in thailand.

 

Quote me accurately I never said pocerty is the SOLE reason. you should read my posts more carefully. I said poverty is the PRIMARY or main reason of why prostitution flourishes amongst poor uneducated women. There are a host of other reasons but I still believe that economic poverty combined with lack of opportunitites is the main reason.

 

This village sounds like an aberration that many like to point to. Evidently it is as i said several times. Prostitution is a commercial industry in Thailand and it uses poor uneducated women as it's fodder.

This village that you mentioned has found that prostitution is a very profitable business to have. how else can they build those villas you mention?

The village understands that they are not going to reap economic gains by farming or working in factories. they have found and capitalized on their 1 tamboon 1 product.

 

Sounds like economics to me

 

 

 

why are comparatively few thai muslim girls in prostitution even though their economical situation is hardly better then the one of the buddhist majority?

 

I have no idea. Do you?

 

 

i have more than a bit of anecdotal evidence which does not support your theory.

 

Fly we all have several bits of anecdotal evidence that can prove and disprove theories. I don't think anyone is speaking in absolutes here. Are you?

 

 

 

you ask about how many wealthier women enter protitution. here in thailand many do. just have a look at the top range massage parlours and their catalogs of movie starlets, news announcers etc, women who have actually economically and educationally nothing in common with that poor, uneducated village girl, and still...

 

yes, it's economics. but a strange set of economics not possible without a certain moral decay (buddhism is *NOT* any more permissive in sexual matters than christianity, opposing popular sextourist believe here ).

 

and this rot in thai society is not just seen in the ease in which appearantly so many women enter one of the many different forms of prostitution. you can see it in the rapidly increasing violence as well. you can see it in the persitent corruption. in the huge gap between rich and poor, the highest in asia together with china.

 

Now your talking about culture and this is more in line with what P127 is mentioning which is the "acceptance" of prostitution by the Thai government and the intelligentsia that are the stewards of Thailand.

 

I still bet you though that the cultural rot you speak of has a basis in economics.

[JJsushi]

flyonzewall said:

yeps, but the northeast has in the recent years caught up and overtaken rather well there.

my point there was basically that one should not read too much into statistics, such as of "poverty". they have not more than supportative value, and can be faked/misinterpreted rather easily. which is known to be done here at times...

also citing outdated statistics to describe today's "big thai picture" is a bit of a mistake, IMHO, espcially when other realities are simply ignored.

 

Provide us with the "updated" statistics or raw numbers or maybe you can provide us with your methodology on how to ascertain how much these 'outdated" statistics deviate from the norm.

 

I am sure some of us are interested enough in the real numbers.

 

Give us something Fly aside from your dismissal of outdated numbers and personal anecdotal evidence for us to reflect upon. Every member on this board has anecdotal evidence that creates his own personal perspective on thailand but it would be more useful for debate if we actually had generally accepted evidence from which to create a paltform.

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] Still sounds like economics to me.

 

[/color]

 

jjsushi, I and a few others do not argue that it is NOT economics, what, at least I, am trying to say is that economics is a factor, yes, but morale is the driving, stronger force.

 

Read your post also that economics is not the sole factor, but I gather that it is the most influential factor, no? If economics is the most influential factor, there will be no poor girls working on normal jobs. These normal girls also lack opportunities as the others who go into prostitution.

 

Morale comes from the family's values and again, ffor children at age 12-17, who else would influence them more than the parents? (Forget about my daughter, I could not influence her thinking as soon as she turned 14 , but she is an American kid).

 

[color:"red"]Now your talking about culture and this is more in line with what P127 is mentioning which is the "acceptance" of prostitution by the Thai government and the intelligentsia that are the stewards of Thailand.

 

[/color]

 

IMO, the culture does NOT accept prostitution or there won't be stero type when they see a Thai woman walking with a "farang". It is just that the government or most of the people who can change chose to ignore because it is a hard work to uproot certain things.

 

IMO, if the morale is instilled, things would have been different. However, Thailand has 2nd or 3rd generation of prostitutes now And convincing these people otherwise is the hardest ones can do. A friend of mine ( a male, HS classmate) got killed many years in a village for being a teacher who tried to stop prostitution.

 

I do agree with you that the partially it is the economics, however, we humen know how to think and solve problem, why don't these people try to think? Also, ones cannot just wait for the "government" to solve all the problems, can they?

 

Jasmine

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] Even if not practiced thru-out the country, if these values you describe stood for something in Thailand, there would have never been a humonguous sex industry whose size and "it's OK-ness" keep your country in the gutter, when it had all the means to escape the smirks and jokes of the international community.

 

[/color]

 

It is stood for something in Thailand P127, however, as jjsushi mentioned in one of the post that ones must take actions to protect the value, and many times, it take much sacrifice.

 

[color:"red"] Shame on your leaders and anyone who could have done something, and shame on thais too, for not voicing decency! All of them and i mean it to the top! [/color]

 

I do agree with you on some of it, however, people need to think.

When I was in HS, my classmates and I travelled a bit to the North. In every town we went, there were young (about 13 -17) prostitutes available. We visited a few families with such daughters (we were with socila workers group) and over 50% of them said that they were ashamed. However, according to the statistics I read last year, most families don't care and have no shame now.

 

IMO, materials desires have clouded a lot of families' thinking.

I am sure it happens in Isaan also.

 

I do agree with you that getting rid of prostitution is not going to be a long-term solution, unless people have options. ::

 

It is beyond me to comprehend parents who raise their children and let them become such when they are still young and will listen to the parents, that is why I blame on parents as the most important factor.

 

All societies start at home, if the home front does not want to protect their loved ones(I assume that they love thier children), who would?

 

Jasmine

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] my explanation is simple. certain values important have not been instilled into them at an crucial age. and they took the "easy road" - instead of hard study they went the way of quick earnings. and now i might have to adopt a child (please not ) of one niece who simply is not fit to be a mother.

 

according to your theory my missus would have ended up in the field as well. but she didn't. her life story is far worse than jasmin's one - her real dad was a very low ranked soldier and killed, one day delivered with half his head missing. she was responsible for cooking for the whole family when she was 7 (!), had to start working as a daylabourer at the age of 11.

but her stepfather and mother still kept up certain values even though the dire poverty, [/color]

 

I have met a few people in dire poverty and maintain the value. I helped a woman once for that sole reason to start a noodle stand business. She is far from being rich but ok.

 

IMO, it takes the parents (or whoever raise the children) to instill certain values. Sadly though, when the life is tested, not all of us can survive.

 

Jasmine

[check_bin_krap]

"All societies start at home, if the home front does not want to protect their loved ones(I assume that they love thier children), who would?"

.............................................................

I agree Jasmine. I don't know the answer though. I don't understand these situations where people 13-17 yrs old do this, and whats in the head of the parents.

[JJsushi]

jasmine said:

[color:"red"] Still sounds like economics to me.

 

[/color]

 

jjsushi, I and a few others do not argue that it is NOT economics, what, at least I, am trying to say is that economics is a factor, yes, but morale is the driving, stronger force.

 

 

That is where you and I will disagree. You think that morality is the driving force, I think it is economics. Morality to me is a luxury that comes after basic needs and wants are satisfied. There was some basic experiments done with rats decades ago. A colony of rats was provided with abundant food and space. The rats thrived as a colony and were very social in their behavior. The experiment then removed the abundant food supply to below sustenance levels. The results were that the rats turned to unsociable and violent behavior and eventually resorted to cannabillism. I don't think people are too different when they llack adequate resources.

 

When P4P in Thailand equals roughly +5% of their GDP around US$ 5bill, I call that an industry. That is beyond mere morales in the home.

 

 

If economics is the most influential factor, there will be no poor girls working on normal jobs. These normal girls also lack opportunities as the others who go into prostitution.

 

 

Once agin Jas you look at the simplistic "the majority of girls who don't do P4P". I look at roughly 8% of eligible Thai girls and 18% of eligible Northeast girls who are prostitutes. I look at the fact that Prostitution is equal to roughly 5% of Thailands GDP.

 

Sorry but you can't argue that economics is not the most influential factor of why these women go into prostitution. There is something systematic and endemic within Thai society as a whole that allows this to happen. Apply those very same numbers to a developed country and you would have a national crisis.

 

 

 

 

Morale comes from the family's values and again, ffor children at age 12-17, who else would influence them more than the parents? (Forget about my daughter, I could not influence her thinking as soon as she turned 14 , but she is an American kid).

 

 

I can't argue with you that family values are important and influence kids but as you know at some point kids learn and are influenced more by the outside world, just as their parents are. The thing about morals Jas is that they become real flexible when given the right incentive.

 

 

 

IMO, the culture does NOT accept prostitution or there won't be stero type when they see a Thai woman walking with a "farang". It is just that the government or most of the people who can change chose to ignore because it is a hard work to uproot certain things.

 

 

Is not the government empowered by the people? Thailand last time I checked actually votes for their leaders. Thais evidently accept prostitution even though they may look down on it. How else do you explain 1 million plus prostitutes and hundreds if not thousands of venues to purchase sex? How else do you explain a billion dollar commercial industry that is almost equal to 5% of GDP?

 

If Thais really do not accept prostitution then they would legislate it out of existence and enforce the legislation. We Americans have our evangelical Christian groups that do a pretty fair job of suppressing the flesh trade in America so at least it is not advertised on the corners in neon flashing lights. We have tons of laws legislating moral decency and our law enforcement does go after the visible and obvious public P4P. At least the pretense for image is their. I see nothing even coming close to that in Thailand.

 

Why would Thai officials raid places like Nanaplaza with television cameras in tow yet not shut down and tear down the entire complex?

 

 

 

 

I do agree with you that the partially it is the economics, however, we humen know how to think and solve problem, why don't these people try to think? Also, ones cannot just wait for the "government" to solve all the problems, can they?

 

Jasmine

 

 

I do believe that lax morals are an important component that allows prostitution to flourish in Thailand, I just believe that economic factors are stronger.

[Zorro]

It is interesting to speculate on why there are so many prostitutes per capita in Thailand.

 

It cannot be just economic or the result of being Buddhist.

Sri Lanka is poorer than Thailand and is also predominantly Buddhist but has hardly any prostitution.

 

I agree with other posters who speculate that it has more to do with the values instilled by parents and peers and sacrifices made by parents for children.

 

Of course economics does play a role and i think Thais generally speaking are more obssessed with outward financial apperances than some other cultures.

 

Just as a personal anecdote i remember first going to Thailand as a young impressionable 23 year old in 1979 and the thing that struck me most and i can remember this clearly was how desperate the people were to have material possessions and how they were prepared to do anything to get it.

I never had this same feeling in India or Sri Lanka or Nepal or Malaysia even thou these were also poor countries.

[Guest]

i don't really want to go here into an endless debate again.

 

 

 

 

>>>You use the term "sluminization" A slum usually denotes a squalid impoverished area. Sounds like an economics based term to me.<<<

 

 

the term how i define it is not just economically based - it is far more mental/emotional/cultural than just economical. it means giving up, stopping to strive for betterment of oneself. trying to explain - i have moved the family from a relatively developed village into a village in the sticks. the prosperous village was rotten to the core. people there have to a large part given up. prostitution and drugs endemic, collapse of the families, etc.

the materially more poor village i haved moved them has one big thing the other lacks - hope and a community spirit. a stability which does vastly improve the chance that the children finish their education.

 

i do not make the mistake and define "poverty" solely, or primarily on material matters. the IMO far worse poverty is the poverty of the mind - if that poverty sets in, there is very little hope for improvement.

 

those are the things you very soon have to face if you actively have to work in developement, and not just theorise about it. if you just think in economical terms you very fast will break your neck on a wall.

 

just look at urban slums here. do you think there is no money around? far from it - there are vast amounts of money around, especially during the height of the drugusiness you saw incredible moneys in some of the slums. do you think any of the profits stuck? all of the drug houses i knew who suddenly had the most expensive hifis money could buy, and other luxury goods i could only dream about, are nowadays, after the drugwar, still wooden shacks, the luxury items sold off.

 

 

i am not saying that economics is not involved, but i my experience has taught me that it is a combination of lots of different factors. the economical factor is the easiest to solve - come up the cash, make a feasable businessplan based on the actual knwledge base of the people and implement it. simple.

but the real work starts afterwards - the hard labour spanning years of trying to instill a sense of selfworth into the minds and souls of the people.

 

poverty of the mind has a very different logic.