cardinalblue Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 JJsushi, You seemed to be stuck at trying to answer the question why do women go into to prostitution? and adament against looking at the other side of the equation. Both questions are equally important in trying to get a grasp on prostituion. One can learn as much about answering the other question as the former. You need both to get a complete and better understanding.. You keep staing the 8% figure as some type of abnormaility? I am not sure it it is. It actually might be too low for public policy, beauracrats, independent exploiters, etc. They actually might prefer a higher accetable rate as long as it doesn't upset the apple cart.. Is Thailand really any higher statistically from other like countries (P.I, indonesia, cambodia, burma, etc). It is silly to compare LOS to indistralized countries. Thailand does a nice job of marketing and internationally commercializing itself for prostitution (and i do think it is supported through out all their social-econ levels) as such but show me where the statistics bear a significant difference as say compared to cambodia.... Poverty only allows people to be put into the position to enter prostitution. I just don't think money is the sole factor of why the girls/boys end up in prostitution. Prostitution is completely engrained within the Thai culture interwined into their fabric. But it is other more significant factors such as their religion, beliefs and attitudes (mai bpen rai, sanook, and nonconfrontational structure), weak family values or strong depending upon on how one views it, cultural tradition, public policy, greed and explotation via corruption at the highest to the smallest level, a cooperative and collective mentality. all working together that decides if this girl or boy will enter the prostitution market. Money alone is not why they enter prostitution especially from the family/child's perspective. I think they think that and will say so that but I believe much greater powers have driven them into the flesh trade. They are nothing but pawns in this very complex network of all these external factors working together. Simple case in point - i know a number of girls who leaft the market from as early as one day to a few weeks/months to a year or two. Why? A number of non-economic reasons: it is no longer fun, it is boring, i don't like foreigners, the money is not enough, I miss my home or family, etc. They leave it as easy as they entered it so where is the financial pressure to stay on. I would bet the average LOS is incredibly short with a very high attrition rate.... Yes, from a saving face perspective, the family or the child will say it is because of the money. I don't think they truly understand the complex system thet they are part of... As to trying to compare the off-spring of rich and poor families, I am not sure what is the point or what you are trying to prove??? No one is going to argue that prostitution % are the same in these two distinct socio-econ classes. I personally believe that the wealthy actually enjoy the fruits of the prostitution market even though they publically condem it and especially for their own or their class that they belong to. I also feel because of the above factors i stated, they really don't give a rat's ass whether poor isaan girls/boys enter or not as long as it doesn't personally injure/impact them in any way. Stutus quo/keep things the same is just so strong in their own personal and socio-econ make-up.... What i can share with you is that i have 680 students 99% female and more than 80% from isaan provinces. Their socio-econ profiles are exactly the same as all/most the girls we see in the entertainment places where they are there by choice/pressure. But they might as well be from another planet. It is too complex to go into here but if i had to say one thing or a group of related things that drove them to where they are today (gov vocational college) it is their family, their family values, and their own value/belief system; it separates them from what i have experienced from the bar scene. I would further go on to say that it would not surprise me that their virginity rate is equal or even higher than children from middle/upper middle classes especially if compared to BKK's off-spring . I have found them to be incredibly conservative possessing the same family value structures that i have come across in middle class/well-off thai families..... So I do not support this pure economc only reason why poor isaan off-spring end up in prostitution; it just ain't that simple.... Cardinalblue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Encore Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Interesting thread. CB's earlier contribution got me thinking about last time I sat with the OP in my favourite watering hole. Last Saturday. I enjoyed being there, enjoyed the company, enjoyed the occasional body contacts, the silly jokes, the booze. Did wonder a bit about respect. Did my current (somewhat) regular, who was staying with me for 3 days, sitting next to me, feel disrespected because I occasionally grope someone else? Did the other girls show her disrespect by groping me? Or is it all simply part of the local subculture in that bar, with no one actually worrying about it? I tried to check it out with her, but she kept saying 'Don't worry about it, everything OK.' I tell myself repeatedly that I feel respect for most of the girls, excepting a few that blatantly step over a boundery that earns them my disrespect. But do my actions disprove what I think I feel? I am polite to them and my various lewd acts are usually on invitation, not resisted, e.g. a simple transaction, they know what they want, I know what i want, no disrespect involved. I always tip those I play with, and we usually part on good terms, even if I'm there with my regular, and they know I won't pay BF for them. Some of the ones I know I respect a lot indeed. It's a shifting ground. i sometimes wonder about the ones I suspect underage, then hear the stories about their backgrounds, home life or rather lack of it, and wonder if sometimes where they are may not be better than where they come from WHOEVER IS THE FACILITATOR OF THIS THREAD, PLEASE PULL MY POST IF I BREACH THE CODE. I do know personally an ex BG (Supergirl PP), and her story, about her sister, go to BKK, because she was starting to stand up to dad, who regularly beat the shit out of her. The sis were worried next time she defended herself, he'd kill her. I later met sis, and dad, and my friend in her village, and feel confident the story is true. She went to BKK, worked as a domestic, got raped, the cops laughed her off, and she started to work dekserve in a bar, then realised, since she was 'damaged goods', just as well go the whole way and earn good money. she came out OK, met a good falang, went abroad, got herself educated, and now is a succesful expat in my country, a survivor. But it made me think, amongst my worries about 'is a bar good or bad for a girl', that there are no absolutes, there are no generalised answers. I do know some girls for whom I have a hell of a lot of respect, even if they're selling their pussy for a living. Besides, who am I to judge, I rent pussy, I'm a whoremonger. Maybe, I respect some of them more than myself. about Romp's questions is it ok to have multiple sponsors I was in that boat, din't like it when I found out. But can understand. We forced her to choose. she cose the one who offered marriage. OK with me, now she's happily marriaged in UK, young kid. Good on her! is it ok to lie and scam EaRLIER IN THIS THREAD PLANTY HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT 'LIES' I lie sometimes for survival reasons. no, not OK morally. but I am not a Saint either. In the end, the punter who asks for unrealistic things, asks for lies is it ok to squander the money? Of course it is, her money! is it ok to enjoy the sex. Of course it is, my current favourite tells me most times with falang, boring, she says she enjoys me being there occasionally, siou 5x each day sanuk mak mak. and she doesn't pretend!! is it ok to enjoy it generally Why not?? is it ok not to seize a way out when it is on the table why not? everyone has their own calendar, their own pace of learning. I droppd out of Un at 21, went back at 35 to finish my degree. give the girl her right to decide when the time is right for her. maybe the best wat to show respect is not to patronise her. Other than age refference, OK. I removed it. It does not change the essence of your post. TTM - Mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 [color:"red"]is it ok to lie and scam In the end, the punter who asks for unrealistic things, asks for lies is it ok to squander the money? Of course it is, her money! [/color] It is ok to do anything; then ; if you put it that way: It is not the first time I heard such talk, but it surprised me coming from a Western man. Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 [color:"red"]It is too complex to go into here but if i had to say one thing or a group of related things that drove them to where they are today (gov vocational college) it is their family, their family values, and their own value/belief system; it separates them from what i have experienced from the bar scene. [/color] As I posted before, it is the families who influence the kids more than anyone/anything. [color:"red"] So I do not support this pure economc only reason why poor isaan off-spring end up in prostitution; it just ain't that simple.... [/color] Agreed. Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check_bin_krap Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 What about my ex Jasmine. She grew up with good parents. Their concern and discussions were always how to keep the family together. Through hard times - how to make ends keep. Her parents worked hard. They managed it somehow. My ex's parents did not drink. Her dad had resepect in the village, as a person who had special powers. He never touched a drop of alcohol during his life. My ex did work as a prostitute, before she met me. 1 1/2 year stint. Can you blame that on parents? She was 28 yrs old when she choosed that, and choosed it for her sons. Her parents did not like it, what could they do? She was left with 2 sons - wanted a better future for them than what she could manage alone with them with working as a cook in Khon kaen resturant. Have YOU tried supporting 2 kids alone on a small wage like that? Have you faced being denied an education from a young age, as its too much to handle for your poor, broke, farmer parents? Teachers of my ex always wanted her to get more education, but no way to get it. She learned English fast in BKK, from a teacher turned Bar Girl. That one also lives in Norway these days. Its too easy to generalize. I have respect for what my ex did. Yes, her wrong choice was choosing wrong Thai guy at age of 19. But love is like that. Sad for her, her second guy has left her also. Her comfort these days is religion and her 2 grandsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 cardinalblue said:JJsushi, You seemed to be stuck at trying to answer the question why do women go into to prostitution? and adament against looking at the other side of the equation. Actually not. I am insistent on the point that economics/opportunity is the major reason many women go into prostitution. You and others want to discount this and go into moral/values arena and repeatedly point to the fact that so many other pooor Thai women don't enter into prostitution. You seem to use that as a rationale that prostitutes "take the easy way out". To me that is a load of bunk and the "intellectual" easy way out. Both questions are equally important in trying to get a grasp on prostituion. One can learn as much about answering the other question as the former. You need both to get a complete and better understanding.. That is an exercise in mental masturbation IMO. You need to look at the fact that prostitution is an industry in Thailand. You need to look at the fact that according to me very conservative guess-estimates 8% of the eligible women are prostitutes and even more telling is that 18% of eligible Northeastern women or 1out of 5 are prostitutes. It is known from my readings that the Northeastern provinces of Thailand are considered the poorest and have the least economic and educational opportunities. So instead of attempting to figure out why the majority of poor girls don't enter into prostitution, it is more compelling to figure out why and how the commercial industry of prostitution recruits and attracts these poor and uneducated women. Don't you think? I say it is economics, I have yet to hear one compelling argument as to why morals and values are the reason. You keep staing the 8% figure as some type of abnormaility? I am not sure it it is. It actually might be too low for public policy, beauracrats, independent exploiters, etc. They actually might prefer a higher accetable rate as long as it doesn't upset the apple cart.. I think my estimates are conservatively low, even then the numbers are alarming. Is Thailand really any higher statistically from other like countries (P.I, indonesia, cambodia, burma, etc). It is silly to compare LOS to indistralized countries. Thailand does a nice job of marketing and internationally commercializing itself for prostitution (and i do think it is supported through out all their social-econ levels) as such but show me where the statistics bear a significant difference as say compared to cambodia.... Take it a step further and apply it to developed countries such as the USA and Western Europe. Why don't you see the same percentages for the mainstream populace? Could it be that these countries have better economic and educational opportunities or is that they have stronger moral and cultural values? Simple case in point - i know a number of girls who leaft the market from as early as one day to a few weeks/months to a year or two. Why? A number of non-economic reasons: it is no longer fun, it is boring, i don't like foreigners, the money is not enough, I miss my home or family, etc. They leave it as easy as they entered it so where is the financial pressure to stay on. I would bet the average LOS is incredibly short with a very high attrition rate.... They may have left prostitution but I bet you that economic reasons where the underlying motivations as to why they entered prostitution. Yes, from a saving face perspective, the family or the child will say it is because of the money. I don't think they truly understand the complex system thet they are part of... Probably no different than farang expats who leave their home countries, promising careers and take up residence in Thailand working in jobs that in no way match their intellectual and educational capacities. No different than tourists who thought they have died and went to easy sex heaven, saving their money for a year just to get back again. I agree it is a complex system that seems to catch many. What i can share with you is that i have 680 students 99% female and more than 80% from isaan provinces. Their socio-econ profiles are exactly the same as all/most the girls we see in the entertainment places where they are there by choice/pressure. But they might as well be from another planet. It is too complex to go into here but if i had to say one thing or a group of related things that drove them to where they are today (gov vocational college) it is their family, their family values, and their own value/belief system; it separates them from what i have experienced from the bar scene. I would further go on to say that it would not surprise me that their virginity rate is equal or even higher than children from middle/upper middle classes especially if compared to BKK's off-spring . I have found them to be incredibly conservative possessing the same family value structures that i have come across in middle class/well-off thai families..... I think family values are important but more so than values it is action. Take Jasmine's explanation of her own experience. She has repeatedly informed us that it was the SACRIFICES of her mother to do any task neccessary to insure her children's education. Morals and values are great but unless one is willing to sacrifice fo them or put them into action then that is all they are - intentions. So I do not support this pure economc only reason why poor isaan off-spring end up in prostitution; it just ain't that simple.... I don't support economics as the only reason either as to why women enter into prostitution but I will state that I believe it is the most powerful and common one. Like I said before, how many billionaires daughters do you know selling their bodies for cash? So given what you know about the topic . Why does the prostitution industry seem to find such fertile ground in the Northeast region of the country? Surely 18% of the eligible women don't have horrible parenting and poor values or lack of morals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiLuk Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 >>Did my current (somewhat) regular, who was staying with me for 3 days, sitting next to me, feel disrespected because I occasionally grope someone else? Did the other girls show her disrespect by groping me? Or is it all simply part of the local subculture in that bar, with no one actually worrying about it? I tried to check it out with her, but she kept saying 'Don't worry about it, everything OK.'<< Her words mean nothing, there is no way to know what she thinks. One girl will have no problem whatsoever, the next one might end up feeling like a piece of shit. I enjoy taking a girl to another bar. I look at the other girls but I've never done the groping thing so i don't think i ever offend but who knows. >>I tell myself repeatedly that I feel respect for most of the girls, excepting a few that blatantly step over a boundery that earns them my disrespect. But do my actions disprove what I think I feel? << Well, yeah :: Sorry, just my humble opinion. If you know for certain that your girl has no problem than its a different situation. But the way you posted about your regular girl... Not all the girls are hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiLuk Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 All: Just want to say that this thread seems to be full of unusually good posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 [color:"red"] Can you blame that on parents? She was 28 yrs old when she choosed that, and choosed it for her sons. Her parents did not like it, what could they do? She was left with 2 sons - [/color] Dear friend, you misunderstood when I said "Parents have the most influence on the kids". I am talking about younger age, for example 10 - may be early 20s. when the kids really need guidance. I was talking about the push of the kids at young age to go into prostitution. I was not talking about women who got married, husband left them, did work in factories or some other jobs, realizing that they had to make fast, better income because of their responsibilities. Hopefully the prostitution stint is temporarily. I feel that the fast money is tempting for I was in that situation for a few years, more few years than I can admit, CBK. Also, most of these older women knew how to manage life and money and I must say that they also know how to grab sponsors real quickly. Most women I met here or in Europe enterred the profession later in life and manage the "after-life" quite well. For these women, all they need is an opportunity to get in better situation. I did not generalize when I said the morale the parents instill in children affect their decision. If some of these Thai parents do NOT put so much pressure on them about "paying back", and push them or give the permission for them to be recruited, there will definitely be less women in prostitution. I mentioned about a woman from Payow who lives in my mother's town now. This Payow province/town has the name and statistics of over 90% of young women are sent as prostitutes, some sold at the age of 12-13. This woman mentioned's parents were ridiculed for NOT letting the daugters out and they also were made fun of being poor. The pressure of the families and neighbors can be extreme. I had the first hand experience When my father died and my mother had to work in our banana farm, in order to make more money, she grilled bananas to sell on the street. She was ridiculed, a former good policeman's wife, grilling bananas to sell 5 bananas for 2 Baht? With the daughter of 17 with good English and French (not bad looking either) JUST going to school with no future of getting a job? With the 500 Baht/month sent to me, I paid the dorm room 250 Baht and the rest for food, bus fair books and so on, do you think I was not tempted, just to lay there letting a man do what he liked with my body then get 800 Baht (offered price then)? All I needed to do WAS doing that once a month !!, that was it ::And taking my mother out of grilling bananas and listened to cruel words? She had enough income to raise my 10 yr. old brother but not enough to sent to me in BKK. (I got tears in my eyes writing this now) You bet I was tempted Do you think I could afford 3 meals a day then? I weighted 90 lbs, wlaking to school 10 KM one way just to save 50 satang, eating 1 meal a day. Got sick several time in the last year of HS for lacking food that several teachers and classmates found ways to feed me without getting me embarassed :: If I did some of that prostitution, perhaps my mother would not have her knee problem now that she got from doing all the farm work and grilling the darn bananas, her hands would have been as soft as the time as I remembered when I was little and my father was still alive. My mother would have killed herself if I succumbed to prostitution, it is a "dirty" money to us. I do respect people's choices, but my opinion is not base on "no experience of hardship". People look at me now, including the Thais and other Asian women, thinking that I have known no hardship and I got where I am easily, NOT. If my mother pushed me into prostitution then, do you think I would have resisted? Hell, NO, I would have done it just to keep her from having such hardship, just to get money to send my little brother to college, just to get out from the shack they lived in. You really brought tear to eyse!! Have not thought about the hardship for a long time :( Perhaps, this is why I stay in this board just to say that I knew the temptation and without my parents belief and morale I would been a prostitute. Not that I feel superior, just count my blessings that my parents do NOT believe in "easy way out" and the morale stays with me, I have never taken an easy way out. In my old age now, my mother is very proud of me and my little brother, she said more than once that if I succombed, she would have never lived this long. Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Jasmine, Thanks for this great post. Goes to show that even more respect is due to people NOT in P4P ! BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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