Sin sot-a TG view

[Central Scrutinizer]

P127 and All,

 

Have to agree with P127 here on this. I know of many Thai adults who do not send money or do anything for their parents. One is my mother-in-law's older sister, who was just in the hospital recently for gallbladder surgery. She has ten kids, only one of who sends any money on a regular basis. All the others except one, who is married to a German guy, send nothing, bring nothing, and do nothing for her. And she is old and ailing. And guess who was touched up to send the money to get Mom out of the hospital after her operation? You guessed it ... the sister in Germany married to the German guy. All the others work and have money, two are school teachers, one brother does quite well himself, all the rest are doing well enough to send 50 or 100 baht a week, or a couple hundred baht a month. They don't, and the youngest daughter can't, as she stays home and tries to take care of her mother, because the rest are nowhere around. So none of this is set in stone. Some families all the grown working kids take care of Mama and Papa sending something home. Some do squat. Some only do a little. Some only during Songkran, maybe 300 to 500 baht for Mama, once a year. It's all up to the family members, what they can afford, what the parent/s may need, how well off the parents are already, etc., etc. Some actually are sucking baht off the parents that have saved for their old age.

 

This same thing goes for sin sot as well. Every family has different ways. Every Thai has their own interpretations of what their cultural and familial expectations and obligations are. The famous Thai phrase "Up to you." has an opposite saying as well, "Up to me." I've heard it used a lot to explain why certain people here do certain things. "Up to me." is a frequent response in explanation.

 

It's not all so cut and dried here.

 

Cent

[..]

Geeez, I have to agree with P127. The world is about to end LOL! And Cent too, but I agree with him a lot.

 

I got married a 18 years ago and my wife was the youngest daughter of three (plus a brother). No one in the family paid or received sin sot (I am the only farang in the family). Ma-in-law thought it to be an old, silly, and embarassing tradition.

 

And no one sent money to Ma either. She had her own and that's enough. In fact, Ma gave the kids things all the time, not vice-versa. Well, not 100% true. When Ma was on one of her philathropic missions to Issan or the Chiang Mai area, she would ask for money for a new Buddha, or wat construction or something. But she did not take credit for the money -- no telling how many rural wats have wifey & my name on them as donors. Ma just handled the mechanics of making it happen. So that does not count.

 

YMMV. Sorry if that makes me a know-it-all, but that's the way it is in my family (and a lot of their associates who's weddings I have been at, too)

 

Cheers,

SD

[Guest]

Hi P127,

 

>>>>Sorry, HT, but you got sucked in, and giving in completely, as well by pretexting or believing this is the way, the culture, and whatnot.<<<<

 

I disagree. I really haven't been suckered into anything. I haven't spoken a word about sin sot with family. My observations here, come from gf, in my quest to learn about the real situation there, through real life experiences that she knows about. She does not have a clue about our particular situation, and what her parent's may want. She doesn't even know what father's sin sot amount to her mother's family was.

 

We have an unusual situation there, though. And any pressure has been 100 % on my gf. Parent's have known for 2 years now, that we intend to marry. But for many various reasons, I could apply for a visa for her, only just later this very month. It's been a very long, hard road for her, where family is concerned. For 2 years now, she has had to fend off questions about why I have not filed for a visa for her. And not just from her family, but from friends and co-workers, as well. When I met her, I was married. I still am. Although separated for many years now.....years before I met Thai gf. I had to remain married, on paper, for certain reasons until next week, when divorce papers will be finalized, and I can finally file for her visa.

 

She could/can not go to family, and tell them I was married to someone else. She is well aware of the responses that would illicit from all her friends and family. She has hung in there, with a tenacity that is more than a little remarkable.

 

I've been suckered into something??? Hardly. My gf goes back home most weekends, where she is continuously grilled about what is happening with me, and why I haven't come for her yet. She has paid in very, very hard terms, for our relationship to continue. So much more than me, so far. For 2 years now, she has had to endure this.

 

But back to sin sot. I'm not a rich guy, which she knew from the very beginning. Her idea is to start work here in US, make US wage, and send much back to parent's, saying "You cannot spend! You have to put towards sin sot for HT and me".

 

So is sin sot real? Holy Christ! My gf's dream is to pay her own sin sot, if need be, so we can be together. What more can you see than that, to know it's not bullshit. On one level she is scared what they may want, but on another, she knows they want her happiness most of all, and won't stand in the way of that, because of baht. She wants to have sin sot respectable, so she can honor her parents. It would kill her to have them experience shame, at her expense.

 

Sure I could tell her, " I'm farang, and is not a farang tradition, so I won't pay a single cent". Would she still marry me? Yes, she would. But I would have a very emotionally sick Thai girl on my hands. And would be something she could never forgive herself for.

 

My statement that the amount is incidental, is born from my gf's ability to give 1,000-2,000-or 3,000 baht a month back to Khun mae yai, her grandmother that raised her. Whether 1 or 2k baht, does not mean much. But if she cannot give anything at the end of the month, will translate to a deep depression.

 

It's the act of showing care and responsibility, that has meaning to her. And I think for most Thai people. They are quite forgiving. I like my gf's parents very much. They are a very warm people, who have great love for both their daughters. We can now finally set an engagement date, where negotiations will most likely take place.

 

But in real, I'm not the least bit concerned. Thai tradition is one thing, but does not overide their daughter's happiness. Somewhere in there, is a middle ground that will be reached. I look forward to going there. No matter what, will be a unique experience.

 

HT

[Guest]

Hi Cent!

 

I agree. And want to very much reiterate that my insight is relagated to my own ongoing experience. And not at all, representitive of the total Thai population.

 

God know's the sin sot issue has produced many farang's with a few holes in their pockets. ::

 

HT

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] got married a 18 years ago and my wife was the youngest daughter of three (plus a brother). No one in the family paid or received sin sot (I am the only farang in the family). Ma-in-law thought it to be an old, silly, and embarassing tradition.

 

[/color]

 

I understand what you are saying and my Thai family is very much the same. As posted, my marriage had no sin-sod involved and many good friends of mine had none.

 

That being said, it does NOT mean that it is NOT a tradition for the majority of Thais and IMO, sometimes, it has to do with face or what perceived as "necessities" to ensure that the daughters are secured and more likely the "milk" money for the parents, it is the "belief" and how the families feel about the subject.

 

A friend of mine, a physician in Germany got married without asking her parents and her only sister did the same. However, her 2 brothers married with the "sin-sod" and the parents understood.

 

So in short, it depends on the families. My only sibling(brother) paid sin-sod to his wife but she gets to keep the gold, the money went to her father.

 

For me, if it means that much to either party, a negotiation is involved. What is a true love if we cannot even try to understand a serious "tradition" or "belief"? ::

 

Jasmine ::

[Zorro]

In most cases the sinsot for farangs is only a couple of hundred thousand baht.

 

If your future wife feels it a necessity to pay the sinsot I think for peace of mind it would be better to pay and make her happy and ensure that you get off to the best possible start in your married life.

 

It is a relativley small amount of money and making a major issue over this could have long term negative consequences for your relationship. We are not talking sheep stations here.

[Guest]

Hi jasmine,

 

>>>That being said, it does NOT mean that it is NOT a tradition for the majority of Thais <<<

 

I think we can all agree that it's a very different cultural aspect, with the rules not being set in stone. But the rules and traditions do vary, depending on local and social status. Do you agree?

 

HT

[JJsushi]

Zorro said:

In most cases the sinsot for farangs is only a couple of hundred thousand baht.

 

If your future wife feels it a necessity to pay the sinsot I think for peace of mind it would be better to pay and make her happy and ensure that you get off to the best possible start in your married life.

 

It is a relativley small amount of money and making a major issue over this could have long term negative consequences for your relationship. We are not talking sheep stations here.

 

I think the pay the money to avoid complications solution is not the best route to follow. You have to think long term and set precedents in these finacial type of situations.

 

Say ur wife s going rate is 40,000bt but you pay the asking price of 300,000bt plus gold sin-sod to display the wealth so to speak. Maybe you marry into a family of poor farmers. You don't think that sin-sod in full view of the entire clan is not going to make an impression on them? Now you just declared to the clan that you in essence a rich man. Not only a rich man but one who is willing to pay a huge premium or has lousy negotiating skills.

 

The problem now becomes twofold. You have now become the target for money requests from the family to take care of financial problems. After all a rich man can spare a few thousand baht to help out. You have also put undue pressure on your wife to maintain the image that she married a rich man so to speak. which means that whenever she is around the clan she has to display wealth.

 

I know too many Asians(Thai included) that won't go home for visits because they have to live up to the image that they are financially successful. They buy gifts for the clan when they visit and they spend quite a bit of money during their visits to keep up the image that they are doing well financially.

 

I think when one enters into sin sod that have to really keep in perspective that they are establishing a "value" on the woman as well as making a statement about your own status. That is the entire point of the negotiation. You figure out the value plus a slight premium. Screw tradition, screw culture and focus on the negotiation.

[thai3]

Sin sot and post marital finacial help for the family are separate issues but both should be gone into before the event. It is important not to overpay sinsot due to being a foreigner or it might, but not necessarily, lead to inflated impressions of wealth and expectations on the families part. On the other hand you don't, if you care for her feelings, want to negotiate so hard that the amount shows the woman up leading to a loss of face. It's a tricky problem all right.

Was'nt there a lady poster on here recently where her husband had refused to pay any sin sot and you could tell she was still coming to terms with this years after. Seems rather selfish to take this route if you are telling her that you love her-peter

[chilli13]

wow all the usual suspects posting different oppinions & still in the end we all agree here - about sin sot & that nothing about that is written in stone

 

on one hand we have numerous accounts of thai families who dont care about sin sod & even calling it a silly tradition of the past!

 

on the other hand we have other families where sin sod clearly is an important tradition & necessary hurdle to clear before entering marriage life.

 

in all cases it would be very interestuing if a breakdown of sin sod facts existed that by class, area, age, education, farang vs. thai groom whatever listed how common sin sod was & typical amounts paid.

 

as its evident both thai-thai & thai-farang marriages have cases of sin sod paid & unpaid I don't really see any basis for blaming any for buying into anything as all apparently go much more case by case than anything else. even upcountry vs. urban or lo-so vs. hi-so weddings dont seem to have any clear trends as to whether sin sod should be expected or not. unfortunately. then it'd just be too damn easy for us!

 

now the thing thats pretty certain though is that the sin sot negotiation is very sensitive & may be rather crucial for the future outcome & expectations of marriage & between groom & extended family. regardless if sin sod asked is 0 baht or 10mill baht it may be very wise indeed to negotiate a bit & lay out the financial groundwork of the legaly binding relation...

 

so for the guys with the 2 extreme viewpoints either insisting pure farang or thai traditions are to be observed I can only pity you. that goes also for the ones only admitting to paying money for sex after the ST is over vs. the ones man enough to put a sin sot upfront...