Teacher head batted by bar owner!

[Khun_Kong]

ALHOLK said:

 

... rarely seen any unprovoked violence against a farang. ...

 

 

Wasn't that the defense argument for the Thai cop who shot to death 2 young Brits in Kanchanburi recently and then ran one over with his car just to be sure?

 

And I think FOZW used to point to "mong na" as sufficient grounds to warrant a violent Thai attack.

 

2x4 on the head, ICU, critical condition? Yeah, that's a fitting response.

[Nervous_Dog]

I agree totally that the punishment is way overboard, however also agree that it was also provocted.

 

Whose right? no idea but the bloke in hospital is probably regretting it and if they have caught the Thai bloke, they'll punish him way too severely as well so that "tourists" feel safe before the london tabloids blow up a storm.

 

DOG

[Guest]

Italy is a much bigger tourist destination than Thailand and we are now at peak season. If tomorrow an Italian barowner smashed the skull of, for example, a Belgian tourist who MAY have badmouthed him there won't be anyone defending him, except his lawyer...

 

What I find extremely weird and totally insane is that on message boards like this, when Thailand or some other 3rd world country is involved, you don't only have (speaking in general) the locals (and their laws, their police forces, their judicial systems etc) band together with their own regardless of Truth and Justice but also the "fellow" farangs (hey, it's them to categorize all of us as such) always ready to convince us that in the Land of Smile it's perfectly good and acceptable having (usually in the most cowardly and vile ways) skulls smashed, bones cracked or lives taken for exchanging words with a local, pointing feet in the wrong direction and other such bullshit.

Exactly right.

 

And these double standards don't do Thailand or Thais any good either. Indeed, they hold economic development back, something which should be particularly important this year when the GDP growth figures have been slashed, tourism arrivals are far below projections and the financial community is expressing concerns that Thailand is heading into a serious slump (again).

 

These sorts of reports should be distributed as widely as possible so that tourists have a better understanding of what can happen in Thailand (they can draw their own conclusions about whether the bar owner was acting reasonably) and market forces can reign in this sort of nonsense.

[MaiLuk]

As OH said, I have NEVER seen a Thai go off on someome who did not ask for it. Random acts of violence just do not happen in farang areas (OK, never say never, but it is so rare that I cannot recall the last time).

 

OK one time a thai guy sucker punched me and jumped on the back of his friends moto before i even had time to know what hit me. Busted upper and lower lip open enough that i left a trail of blood in the street walking back to my hotel. Looked like an idiot for the rest of my LOS stay LOL. You'll have to trust me that i didn't provoke it was just walking home with my TGF. Was not in a farang area tho and that in itself may have been enough to set the guy off.

 

In farang areas i have only had problems with one african guy, one farang guy and a handful of thai girls. Problems with thai girls are almost unavoidable if you hang around their turf often enough just ask OH ::

 

Never once had a problem with a thai guy in the farang areas. I had one GF for a year where the thai guys would say shit to her as we walked by (she just had that look and was the same girl with me when i was sucker punched). I got used to it and ignored it. But if i tried to be the western dude who always stands up for his girl's honor with these guys every time i would have been fighting daily. Need to leave that shit at home.

 

My rule is to mind my own fucking business and the chances of being on the wrong end of violence in the LOS is close to nil.

[FIGJAM]

Old Hippie said:

"...BTW, how can a non paying customer make you loose 2+ weeks pay?..."

 

Very simply, if you are familiar with how things work in LOS, especially in the nightlife/beer bar scene, then you'd know that the money the customer cheats, comes out of the girls salary. As I am sure you are aware, their salaries are often cut for all sorts of little infractions to work rules...such as show up 1 minute late, get docked for 30 minutes or 1 hour, shirt not ironed "properly" docked...etc...any money missing for drinks she served, she gets docked. If her salary is say 3000bht a month, and the punter runs up a bill of 500 Bht, that is almost a weeks pay. The example I stated from Ying's bar, involved a bottle of Johnny Walker Black lable which retails for 1200+ Bhat so almost 2 weeks salry, ++ all hs other unpaid for drinks...so probably over 2 weeks salary at that point. Keep in mind, she would be billed the bar's full sale price of the bottle, not the retail at Villa market price. She might lose her job over it as well. If she were to be docked, she may possible not have enough money to feed herself or her kids, or pay her bills. Make sense now?

Firstly, I take note how we started with a specific case involving a BAROWNER turning it into a general discussion about the Thai attitude towards violent behavior and then you are now presenting very particular cases where you think to be able to stand some ground...)

Secondly, it would make some sense if they would react in the same extreme way every time they lose similar chunks of money and that is clearly NOT the case. Those same bargirls who would take your life for making them lose 500 baht think often nothing of losing much bigger sums among all the same pay cuts that you mention and that they happily accumulate every month often just out of sheer laziness. Thais are scammed everyday by other Thais and you usually get the kind of reaction displayed by the barowner object of this thread when Thais feel to have been scammed (no matter the sums involved) by somebody of similar or inferior social status (e.g. the farang of our case). Period.

Moreover, while it's true that the service staff is usually charged for the money missing from the bar tabs' total earning of the day/week, I have never heard of a waitress being blindly "fined" for the damage made by a drunk customer or being charged the bar tab of a customer who simply got up, refused to pay and left the bar without paying.

That's why the most common tricks are shortchanging you or charging you inflated or non-existant bills rather than downright stealing from the bills themselves.

The management know too well that given the honesty and integrity of the Thais the bars would lose the most part of their earnings if there wasn't such system in place.

It would be interesting to see employees (for example exchange booth clerks) fined not only when they are caught stealing from the employer but ALSO when they are caught stealing from the customers!

I guess that then I would get my exchange right most of the time without having to openly start to count my money in front of the clerk and then having him/her quickly adding a note or two as "a second thought" with a mute blank stare and no explanation nor apology...

 

 

Simply put, They get the satisfaction of standing up for themselves.

Thais are taught from day 1 to bend over and take it all up the ass with a smile and no lube if it comes from someone of higher status and/or economic means (which usually go hand in hand in LOS).

That's why in LOS you see the rich obscenely flaunting their wealth in all possible ways in their fellows' poorer faces, cutting queues, parking wherever they feel like, abusing vendors, service staffs and so on without fear of any bullshit cultural taboos...

The problem for us farangs is that we don't usually even score in their pecking order and for sure farang drunk whoremongers are little above soi dogs, and I imagine you know how Thais feel for sick old soi dogs...

 

Put it western terms for a second, how does putting a guy in prison or jail or on probation for stealing from you, even the score? especially if you don't get your money/stuff back...? How does that make you feel about being a Christian in a peaceful church going Christian country? Shouldn't you just forgive them? The hypocracy you speak of exists in all countries. Put yourself in the situation I described above, of not being able to pay your bills or feed yourkids/yourself because some ass cost you 2 + weeks pay, and you have no money saved because you live pay check to paycheck on a low salary, and the person who did it, laughed right in your face about it... in that situation, you might get angry and violent, and want revenge even if it won't get you your money back. And you are from a peacful civilized Christian country are you not?

In my peaceful civilized Christian country I cannot base the amount of physical damage that I can do to someone stealing from me on the amount of money he is stealing from me, be it 2+ weeks pay, 1 year or my life savings. As a matter of fact, if I am not physically menaced I cannot physically harm anyone.

Do I need to remind you that that poor bloke in ICU had already turned his back and was going away from the bar, had not harmed anyone and the max damage he had done (assuming that the barowner has told the truth) were 2 broken bottles of spirits?

 

Sarcasim noted. Now note my sarcasim. Glad you understand what I am talking about here and agree with me. Sarcasim over...why not answer the question? what is a small girl/guy supposed to do?

If they really are so small and defenseless, violence should cerntainly be their last resort, Old Hippie...

If all they wanted was really just getting back the money they, especially when dealing with farangs, could get the police involved, pay the "due" to their corrupt police force (hey, it's their corrupt society and corrupt culture after all, their policemen don't come from Mars but from every corner of the Kingdom, they perfectly represent and ARE "the average Thai"...) and most likely recoup the money (often even when they are clearly in the wrong...). BTW, has your "small girl" recouped the money of the black label or has simply thrown the beaten up farang out like usually happen?

I assure you that the same "small girl/guy" would hardly pull the same stunts with fellow Thais of higher status and/or higher means.

 

I'll say it again, severe violence over stolen money or goods or servicesand or a severe loss of honor/violation of honor may well result in a justified severe ass kicking.

So justified, in fact, that sending someone in ICU with a smashed skull and internal bleedings over just a verbal disagreement or verbal abuse, will usually see (in Italy and I believe also in most if not all the other western countries) you charged not only with assault and attempted murder but also with the aggravating charge of "futile reasons".

 

If you think Thais are dangerous and hypocrites, than stay home, or go some place else... Peace my brother, this isn't personnal.

I have found all of the 3rd world countries that I have visited to be (more or less under the surface, as is the case in LOS) to be utterly ruthless and certainly deeply violent and dangerous.

In the case of some of them (like Thailand) there are other trade offs that will see me visiting the country and enjoying what my being born in the West make me able to afford but in no way I would have my children grow up there or I would encourage any of my relatives and friends to visit such places where, if/when the shit hit the fan, you get the real taste of what 3rd world culture, 3rd world laws, police and judicial system really mean...

 

And, of course, there isn't anything personal

[FIGJAM]

Nervous_Dog said:Whose right? no idea but the bloke in hospital is probably regretting it and if they have caught the Thai bloke, they'll punish him way too severely as well so that "tourists" feel safe before the london tabloids blow up a storm.

 

DOG

Right, like the tourist police officer who shot and ran over those English backpackers and who was granted bail right after they caught him as an absconder and notwithstanding the risk of "witnesses threatenings" and who has simply got jail time (and in the process of appealing even this mild verdict) in spite of Thai laws clearly contemplating the death penalty for his crimes (of which he has been declared guilty) and all of this after all of those "powerful" "London tabloids" have blown up a HUGE storm and UK govt bigshots have got involved by the media and the victims' families...

 

Dream on.

[Old Hippie]

To answeryour question, about my small friend, and the black label, that was2 separate stories. The money for the drinks and black label was recovered, when the drunken fuck was contfronted with the threat of violence from some farangs, and some Thais...I seriously doubt he would have done so had it not been for that.

 

The small girl who beat the shit out of a drunken customer did get her money, the guy got seriouslty fucked up. The farangs who saw both or similar incidents, learned not to fuck with these people. The message is clear, fuck with them, and you pay, same anywhere, fuck with the wrong people at the wrong time and you will pay.

 

Regarding the guy having turned his back on the barowner in question, stupid move. It could have been interpreted as him being arrogant and dismissing her, so she did the only thing she could do at the time. Calling the cops anyplace is a crap shoot, the incident is over, and the guy gone by the time they show up.So I'll stand by my original statements, and say I am guessing from experience here, the farang asked for it. Anyway, been fun dude, but this is getting boring and redundant, Cio!:

[FIGJAM]

Old Hippie said:

To answeryour question, about my small friend, and the black label,

That was just a "by the way" question, what about the much more important rest of the post?

 

Regarding the guy having turned his back on the barowner in question, stupid move. It could have been interpreted as him being arrogant and dismissing her, so she did the only thing she could do at the time.

I guess you and your close friends have never personally had a bad and/or violent experience in LOS, right?

Or have you had them and justified, in your mind, each and every of them in a similar fashion by way of "cultural taboos", "pride", "honor", "standing for oneself", "having to feed oneself" and telling to yourself that all that had happened, have happened for your being a "stupid fuck" ignorant of the Thai ways and basically "asking for it"?

 

Anyway, been fun dude, but this is getting boring and redundant, Cio!:

Especially when you are not confuting my arguments...

Ciao

[FIGJAM]

suadum said:

FIGJAM said:

The point which you fail to see is that 1st world western societies don't condone in any way violent physical reactions to non physical offences

You obviously did not grow up in the inner city of any large city in the States. It is exactly the same thing there. I have seen severe beatings just because you wore the wrong color clothes into a neighborhood, even I have been on the receiving end. I have seen a kid killed in a crowded public school lunchroom because he did not want to let someone steal his winter coat. Too many examples to list. Take off your rose colored glasses, my man.

I have no problem in believing that OH's mates and the neighborhood you grew up in find perfectly normal reacting with extreme physical violence to non physical arguments/confrontations (because this is the subject of the thread), but I have a very hard time believing that the average American public opinion wouldn't react with extreme disgust to news reporting how an American bar owner has attacked from behind a Thai teacher living and working in the US and married to an American who was leaving his bar after having been accused of having smashed a couple of bottles (accuses denied by him and his friend). The foreigner had not physically harmed anyone and was walking away turning his back to the American when the latter smashed his skull and sent him in ICU with internal bleedings.

In Italy (and I believe in the US and all the rest of the West) the bar owner would be in jail facing the extremely serious charges of "assault", "procured aggravated injuries", "attempted murder" and with the aggravating charge of "futile reasons". Moreover, if the Thai could prove that he was specially targeted because of being a foreigner there is another charge specially for that!

In Thailand? Lieutenant Pumin Ngarmlai, of Tong Lor Police Station, said he would question the owner of the bar later today!!!! Jesus Fucking Crist!!

 

 

FIGJAM said:

You, as a foreigner in a western country, can infringe as many "cultural taboos" as you want, can exchange words with anyone, can get drunk and try to not pay your bar tab and, as long as you don't physically hurt anyone, can count on the strongest public condemnation of anyone who sent you to an ICU with a fractured skull and internal bleedings just because of that.

5555555555555 See above. I would love for you to spend a weekend in my old neighborhood in Detroit! I *would* send flowers to you hospital room tho', cuz I am a nice guy 55555555555.

I am NOT saying that the same exact thing couldn't happen to me or to a foreigner in Italy or in the US, what I am saying is that the authorities and the general ("general" doesn't mean only OH's mates and your neighborhood) public opinion would react in a MUCH different way than how they usually do in Thailand.

I am also saying that I highly doubt that we would hear the usual chorus of justifications, explanations and excuses in defense of the barowner if the bar owner was an Italian or an American, the victim on life support was a Thai and the fact had happened in Italy or the US.

 

But regarding Thailand...you want you cake and want to eat it too, eh? This is a third world country. If you want to fuck whores with impunity, drink in illegal establishments, buy pirated DVDs, break numerous other laws but have the coppers look the other way, etc., etc., etc., then you have to take the good with the bad and have some sense.

Read my reply to Old Hippie RE trade offs.

I DO take the good with the bad, I just happen to get seriously pissed off by the fairy tales I am often told on message boards like this on the friendly, loving, caring, peaceful, nice, Buddhist Thais and their friendly, loving, caring, peaceful, nice, Buddhist society and how better this people and this society are than our own corrupt, violent and egoistic ones when all the evidences show the exact opposite to be true.

"RUTHLESS" is the one word by which I would describe all of the 3rd world societies I have come in contact with.

 

Thailand just happens to better hide it behind a fake smile...

 

If not, your stupid ignorant drunken ass will get what it deserves.

 

Thailand is the closest thing to a working anarchy there is. If people follow simple social rules, it all works. When someone gets out of line, it is corrected. I happen to like it that way, but some idiots think that anarchy means that they can get away with anything.

You and Old Hippie do not know what are you actually talking about.

Here is a perfect example, if you both still don't get it there is nothing else but the "hard way" to learn what I am trying to show you: in another of your posts in this very thread you write about "some idiot hitting on my daughter, feeling her up, not taking no for an answer". Now please enlighten me on what are the steps that you would take and the possibilities open to you to protect your children in Thailand and, in similar circumstances, in the USA.

Then tell me about the general Thai attitude towards violence against women and the general American attitude towards the same matter and how it reflects itself in the different ways in which the Thai and American laws, police forces and judicial systems deal with this matters.

Then tell me again that you "like it that way".

 

 

P.S. 'Cause I too am a "nice guy", I am not going to reply to you that "if you want to fuck whores with impunity, drink in illegal establishments, buy pirated DVDs, break numerous other laws but have the coppers look the other way, etc., etc., etc., then you have to take the good with the bad" and accept the fact that in the country in which you have chosen to grow your children up the most effective way (when not the only) to protect yourself and your family is to use your status, your wealth and your connections (if you have any, that is) and simply get your head smashed when confronting people of higher status, bigger wealth and better connections. Good luck.

[Hugh_Hoy]

Figjam...I'm completely in agreement with the points you are making: 1.) The reaction of the bartender was completely disproportionate to any alleged offense)(ce); 2.) Most civilized persons from Western countries would be outraged and applaud the prosecution of the bartender for using lethal force (especially, if it was a "Sunday punch", without any warning). And I'm quite certain that Lt. Sitonmyasskorn would have his worthless butt on the scene reo-reo if it had been a farang bartender and a Thai customer.

 

I think that we all realize that in almost every country there are areas of cities where one should be especially careful. Certain "subculture" mores and folkways transgress the rule of law in those places (unless/until it suits the subculture members). And like Suadum said, it is in places like those that squad cars respond in twosies and sometimes foursies. Let's face it, the nightlife scene almost anywhere is a "subculture" in which most of us participate/have participated to one degree or another. There is a risk element involved. Certainly, if I thought that I had a good chance of being hit from behind over an innocent mistake I made or an attempted rifoff by a barowner, I'd think twice about participating. I think that this was somewhat of an anomoly. But I think the whole thing is absolute bullshit. No way do you try to kill somebody over a couple of broken bottles of booze. You kill somebody to protect your life or that of another person. No excuses.

 

Hugh (mak)

Those who agree with me may not always be right, but I admire their astuteness.