US Troops Deserting

[ALHOLK]

Well said.

[The_Munchmaster]

Hey Candy, your post certainly sparked a whole bunch of discourse. 160 replies in 5 days must be some kind of record!

[chuckwoww]

The_Munchmaster said:

Hey Candy, your post certainly sparked a whole bunch of discourse. 160 replies in 5 days must be some kind of record!

 

It's a good topic. Lots of interest. Kudos to KS for letting it run.

[Evel_Penivel]

chuckwoww said:

You're not trying very hard Evel.

 

Let me try harder, then. At the end of this post, as a token of my respect for your skills as a master debater, I'll reveal some facts about the Iraqi insurgency that aren't generally known. I hope the CIA is monitoring Nanaplaza.

 

But this thread sure is fun! I get almost as big a kick out of it as wearing my "Mohammad cartoon" T-shirt in Muslim neighborhoods. You've inspired me, Chuckwoww - I'm trying very hard to earn a fatwa! Without your encouragement, I would never have bothered.

 

The mistake you, AF16 and Alholk are making is to ascribe to Al Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgency ideologies they don't have. You're implying they are some sort of "liberation movement" with an anti-imperalist agenda, albeit non-socialist, sort of Che Guevara on a camel, waving the Quran instead of the Communist Manifesto.

 

Al Qaeda has a religious agenda, not a social one. Bin Laden wants to re-establish the caliphate - the traditional area of Muslim rule - under Sharia law as a step in the forced conversion of all non-believers. Read his own words here:

 

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders

 

Pay particular attention to two sentences: "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it ..." And later: "We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it."

 

Everything is says is justified by "God's order" or references to the Quran and Islamic scholars. That isn't a great basis for a pluralistic, democratic society.

 

The non-Al Qaeda insurgents are led by members of Al-Amn al-Khas, the most feared branch of the five-headed former Iraqi secret police. Baath party officials, former Republican Guards and various religious militias are also big in the insurgency. Not very good guys to have as heroes, AF16. Their role is about the same as the Waffen-SS units who fought so hard in the final weeks of WWII in a hopeless but horribly destructive attempt to preserve the Third Reich.

 

The Germans, Italians and Japanese didn't want to be occupied by the U.S., either. But look at the result - within 20 years of the end of WWII, those countries were highly prosperous with more democratic governments and freedom for individuals than their citizens ever enjoyed prior to occupation. They also fared infinitely better than the people of East European countries occupied by the Soviet Union.

 

Certainly in Germany there was violent opposition at the beginning of the Allied occupation, but it ended within two years. There were no suicide bombers and even the ex-Nazi "werewolves" didn't attack their own people. The German people, including virtually all military veterans, had tired of bloodshed and decided to get on with their lives, making the best of a less-than-ideal situation.

 

That's what the Iraqis should do as well. In just a few years they'd have a functioning democratic society with McDonalds and Wal-Marts replacing the bazaars. Coca Cola would be available on every street corner ? the new lime-flavored variety is particularly pleasing to Arab palates. They'd have cable TV with 200-plus channels and American pop on the radio. And maybe even the ultimate ? a Disney World ! Surely that's better than beheadings and suicide bombings.

 

OK, Chuck, it's been fun. Now time for your reward, just as I promised. The secret info comes in the last section. First a story about the guys who should be your heroes, not Al-Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgents.

 

Ha en trevlig helg!

 

EP

 

When Osama bin Laden is finally killed by the CIA, he is met at the Gates of Paradise by George Washington, who slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped found!"

 

Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose and shouted, "You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

 

James Madison followed, kicked him in the groin and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

 

Thomas Jefferson was next, beat Osama with a long cane and snarled, "It was evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence."

 

The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe , Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart and 64 other early Americans unleashed their anger on the terrorist leader.

 

As Osama lay bleeding and in pain, the Angel Gabriel appeared. Bin Laden wept and said, "This is not what you promised Muslim martyrs."

 

Gabriel replied, "I told Mohammad there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you guys in Paradise. What did you think I had said?"

 

 

Now for the really heavy stuff:

 

We all know Uday and Qusay have been eliminated, but a lot of Saddam's lesser-known family members have taken control of the insurgency. My source for this information I'll only identify as EPC.

 

Among the "sons"

 

Sooflay.......................the restaurant owner

Guday........................the half-Australian brother

Huray.........................the sports enthusiast

Ohsay.........................the brother obsessed with the U.S. national anthem

Kuntay & Kintay.........the twins from the African mother

Ojay...........................the former football pro, later murderer

Biliray.........................the country music star (EP note- my personal favorite)

Ecksray......................the radiologist

Puray.........................the blender factory owner

Tupay........................the one with bad hair

 

Among the "daughters":

 

Bufay.........................the vampire slayer

Dooshay....................the clean sister

Sapheway.................the grocery store owner

Oivay.........................the one who lives in Tel Aviv

Gudlay.......................the prostitute

[chuckwoww]

Evel_Penivel said:

 

The mistake you, AF16 and Alholk are making is to ascribe to Al Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgency ideologies they don't have. You're implying they are some sort of "liberation movement" with an anti-imperalist agenda, albeit non-socialist, sort of Che Guevara on a camel, waving the Quran instead of the Communist Manifesto.

 

Al Qaeda has a religious agenda, not a social one. Bin Laden wants to re-establish the caliphate - the traditional area of Muslim rule - under Sharia law as a step in the forced conversion of all non-believers. Read his own words here:

 

 

And the mistake you make is assuming I am an Al Quaida fan. I'll let AF16 and ALHOLK speak for themselves, but I dislike all religious extremists of every stripe equally. Basically I think AQ is trying to play on muslim sentiment.

 

I have no illusions about the agenda of some jihadis but all the talk about 'establishing a caliphate' is just a way of adding fuel to the fire. Most muslims are very easy-going tolerant people and Iraq was actually one of the most secular Islamic countries until it got shattered. I actually think Pan-Arab Nationalism was seen, by some, as a bigger threat to the West (and the Saudis) which was another reason for slapping Saddam down. Of course the idealogues and fanatics are out of the box now but that's because of the so-called war on terrorism.

 

I'm not sure I have any heroes.

 

Glad you are enjoying this discussion. There's a bit of life in it yet I think. I still want to know how you would react to seeing your father dragged off with his hands bound and a bag on his head. Try laughing something like that off.

[Evel_Penivel]

Chuck -

 

I compliment you with a tip of the evil pen on being a good sport. I realize full well you aren't a fan of Al Qaeda.

 

If I saw a family member dragged off, no doubt my response would be very violent. I'd certainly call on help from my friend Colt, the one with the cute snub nose. Or better yet, my Israeli friend Uzi.

 

But would I cut off the head of a journalist or businessman because he happened to come from the same country as the people doing the dragging? Or plant a bomb in PS 137 because some of the parents of the children there might have collaborated with the draggers? I don't think so.

 

On the personal level, I can imagine myself playing the keepsie version of Cowboys and Muslims and Death-or-Consequences Jihadi Challenge, but nothing involving suicide bombings.

 

EP

[chuckwoww]

Evel_Penivel said:

 

If I saw a family member dragged off, no doubt my response would be very violent. I'd certainly call on help from my friend Colt, the one with the cute snub nose. Or better yet, my Israeli friend Uzi.

 

But would I cut off the head of a journalist or businessman because he happened to come from the same country as the people doing the dragging? Or plant a bomb in PS 137 because some of the parents of the children there might have collaborated with the draggers? I don't think so.

 

Well that is good to hear. Perhaps you aren't so evil after all. But I'm willing to bet there are some in America who would not show the same restraint. Just as there are some in Iraq who don't.

 

Since it's never really been put to the test in America (not counting serial killers here) we can't say who has the edge on barbarism.

[Evel_Penivel]

My pen is the only evil part of me. But even it's not so hard to get along with, or so the BGs say.

 

EP

[chuckwoww]

It's interesting this pre-occupation with 'evil' these days. One sees it a lot in music and among bloggers. Nobody wants to be a 'goodie' it seems. Pushing the PC envelope thing? Or is it some kind of anti-Christian spoof? ::

[elef]

A question to you americans in general - if you don't want Iraq under sharia law, why did you establish an afghan state under sharia law?