Strict New Controls on Foreigners

[Bangkoktraveler]

Just before some of this information hit the newspapers, I was reading about Bolivia nationalizing their gas companies. This did not catch the world's attention much but I thought, if this happened in Thailand, would anybody say anything? I don't think so. Like this board, there are a few who would like changes to take place in Thailand for the good, but I feel the majority prefer it to stay as a corrupt third world country. So if foreign owned property should be nationalized, who is going to complain about?

[shygye]

Bangkoktraveler said:

... So if foreign owned property should be nationalized, who is going to complain about?

 

The US, EU, Oz, Japan, etc would complain because it would hit their multinational companies. Now booting farangs out of condos or housing estates would not rate.

[Guest]

if ANYONE thinks they have EVER seen a Labor Ministry enforcement officer, please tell us all about it

The British Counsel reports that work permit arrests are the number 2 cause of arrest of Brits in Pattaya (see this week's Stickman).

 

You may be right that there are no Labor Ministry enforcement officers (I don't know), but if other officials are enforcing work permit laws, is your point moot? There seem to be plenty of sources confirming work permit arrests, but some debate about the level of, and any changes in, the enforcement of work permit laws.

 

But now I am curious: who enforces these laws? Is it, perhaps, the regular police? If so, does the absence of Labour Department enforcement officials matter?

[StoneSoup]

The penalties for work permit violations are laid out at http://61.47.15.7/workpermit/aliens_act.html Section 34 (we all fall under provisions of Section 7).

 

So - imprisonment is possible - with a maximum accompanying fine of 5,000 baht.

 

As far as I know, it is virtually always Immigration picking people up - for working in violation of their entry permit status, and the arreestring officials are not actually representing the Labor Ministry.

 

I also think the penalties (fines) being received are much higher than 5,000 baht.

 

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who was actually picked up for "working without a work permit" while on a valid non-immigrant B entry permit. This would NOT be an Immigration violation - this would just be a Labor Ministry violation.

 

I don't know the true situation - of the handful of people I have run into who were arrested for working illegally, 100% of them had no non-immigrant visa - so they were all truly in violation of their Immigration status. But - I've only spoken to three - and corresponded with a couple of others. As I recall, I think all but one were also overstays at time of arrest. But - they all thought of themselves as "picked up for working without work permit."

 

SS

[simie]

Stonesoup, you mentioned that all the people you spoke to/corresponded with had Non-Imm visas but also where on overstay? Therefore their visa had either run out or they had not done a visa run after 90 days. So as they technically had no visa they would be in the same boat as a person who had overstayed a tourist visa or 30 day entry stamp? I can perhaps understand someone working without the work permit, as previous posters have mentioned the Thai definition of "work" being rather fluid?! But i still cannot get my head around the logic of the people who regularly overstay. ::

Simie.

[StoneSoup]

I wrote

100% of them had no non-immigrant visa

 

"had no" = "did not have"

 

Cheers!

SS

[Guest]

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who was actually picked up for "working without a work permit" while on a valid non-immigrant B entry permit. This would NOT be an Immigration violation - this would just be a Labor Ministry violation.

Maybe if Stickman interviews the British Consul (I just realized I have misspelling the title) in Pattaya again he can provide some leads. I lost touch with the Effective Planner guys, but I am pretty sure I know their lawyer and maybe I can twist his arm for free advice (maybe not). It's clear that Farangs are being arrested for something when they are caught working without a work permit.

 

Incidentally, speaking of free advice, I had lunch today with a group that included a Farang and Thai lawyer and few financial types. Without going into specifics, they all said the enviornment is generally getting tighter.

 

The conversation then turned to the more interesting subject of Thai politics (there is only so much free advice you squeeze before you're too obvious), and we all agreed that after the 60th anniversary celebrations this week and early next week, the gloves will come off (if anyone ever thought they were on). All sorts of rumours about who is going to do what to whom (none of this targetted at Farangs, unless we happen to be in the way).

[StoneSoup]

I will give just two concrete examples of how things have gotten signifcantly easier on foreigners:

 

1) When I got my first work permit in Bangkok in 2002, they typed in a special section that specified that I had to have 4 Thai employees to keep my work permit valid. Many people still think that this is the case - but this rule disappeared at least 18 months ago. My company now regularly secures work permts for clients who have started new companies in Bangkok - within two weeks of incorporation - before the company has ANY Thai employees, or even a bank account (much less any paid up capital).

 

2) Less than 18 months ago, in order to obtain a long-term extension of an entry permit issued agsinst a Class B visa, you had to provide Immigration with bank documentation proving that you had paid up at least 2,000,000 baht of registered capital for each such extension. No such documentation is any longer required - Immigration requires no proof of any funds having been paid in.

 

Work permits used to take several weeks - now they typically come back in 9-11 days after application is submitted.

 

Other than the issues about proxy Thai shareholders and purchasing land, and recent tightening of practices concerning corporate signature authority by foreigners without work permits, I cannot think of even one single aspect of "Controls of Foreigners" that have gotten harder. The only changes I have seen are that things have gotten easaier.

 

I would like to hear of any othr specific processes - other than 1) property purchase with fake Thai shareholders, 2) increase in overstay fine to 500 baht per day, and 3) signing for company bank account without a work permit - that have gotten harder. And - I'm talking about systemic changes - not single incidents where some individual bank clerk or government official created problems - that has always occasionally happened, and represents no change.

 

I will also note two changes that benefit foreigners, even though they were not directed specificaly at foreigners. Personal income tax rates have gone DOWN due to an increase in the top amount in the "zero taxes owed" income tier. And - the point at which small companies must begin administering VAT collections has increased from total revenue of 100,000 baht per month, up to 150,000 baht per month.

 

SS

[simie]

Stone soup, yes sorry i must have been half asleep at the time and misread your post

Simie.

[Guest]

that specified that I had to have 4 Thai employees to keep my work permit valid. Many people still think that this is the case

Actually, I don't think that was ever tied to work permits - I always thought it was a requirement for a one year visa (one issue I no longer need to contend with).

 

We may disagree on the specifics, but I think it is evident that Thailand is not particularly transparent on these sorts of matters. Look at the confusion here. On land transactions, they apparantly stopped registration altogether if a Farang was a director or shareholder in the company making the transaction (imagine if this happened after you had paid 3 million or so Baht for construction and your company was about to take title after the building was complete.) Not exactly good for investor confidence. And I heard something today at lunch something that was a bit disconcerting...not to any business visitors, but a category of work where Labour officials are supposed to more strictly excerise their discretion.

 

Why not open it all up? It would give the economy a much needed boost and would certainly help more than harm Thailand. You'd also have to worry less about lawyers, and more could focus more on economic fundamentals.