McBif Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Evel_Penivel said: Until 1967, there were no Palestinians, even in Arab usage. Palestinians are esentially generic Arabs. I wish anyone could explain the cultural, linguistic, or any other difference between a Palestinian and a Jordanian. EP, Excellent point. It astounds me how the entire world has been suckered over this. As I perhaps intemperately asked another poster recently: Do they speak Palestinian there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Do they speak "Isreali?" the idea is not about the language, it is a dispute over who should control the land...I recall rweading about Palestine in world history books, and it was refered to as such long ago...the people from what was called Palestine, were/are called palestinians...simple enough...somewhere the name of the country got changed, and some of the old band still rergard themselves as Palestinain, not Isreali...same with Mynmar/Burma...the people their aren;t now refered to as Mynmarese are they? maybe some want to be, others don't... Regarding the culture...arab culture is moreless the same throughoput the middle east, a few differences perhapes...so way claim Palestine needs an identifiable culture to be legit? This is, I( fear another one of those issues where emotion gets inthe way of rational thought... The fued between Jews and Muslims dates way before the creation of Isreal, and as I said, will no doubt never come to an end...sad, but probably true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Sorry McBif but I don't think 'the whole world has been suckered'. The land keeps changing hands that's all. It was the Romans who started calling it Palestine in 135 AD. Before that it had been Israel and before that Judea/Samaria and before that Canaan. Obviously whoever owns it gets to name it. The Arabs who lived there before the Jews took over prefer to keep calling it Palestine. They don't like to use the word Israel because they don't recognize Israel. That's why they like to call themselves Palestinians. It gives them a cultural identity. Same reason Jews in the Diaspora called themselves Jews basically. Not sure why that would astound you. All kinds of languages have been spoken there over time from Phoenician Aramaic, to Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Turkish and Arabic. There's no language called Palestinian same way there's no language called Australian. Saying Palestinians don't exist is no different from Palestinians saying Israelis don't exist. They obviously do or they wouldn't be fighting over the same piece of real estate. As to how it all ends it looks to me like the Israelis are hoping the Palestinians will kill each other off. I don't think anybody seriously thinks they can live peacefully together or that Israel will ever be accepted by the Arab world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_66_UK Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Israel and Palestine. Both right both wrong. Be interesting to see how the referendum in Palestine goes next month, I think their President is being rather clever - appears to be asking the people to declare acceptance of the State of Israel (which the Americans and the Jews can hardly say is a bad thing) - but I suspect this referendum will also involve declaring a Palestinian STATE. Be interesting to see how folk deal with this, I cannot see how the US / EU / UN and Israel can logically deny them becoming a State - but of course logic does not play a large part in that part of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF16 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 David66UK said: What does work mean? What is the goal? To stop them killing "us". Whilst "we" steal their oil. Clinton once said something along the lines of : in a world where every dick tom and jerry have weapons of mass destruction it's wise to have more friends than enemies. Hint, you are fresh out of friends. I don't think your goal will be reached by killing hundreds of thousands in a brutal war to get oil. Even your freinds would see you as a threat to their security. The US knows this and it has not only made them try to _ PORTRAY _ them self as the good samaritan of war, but also change their approach to unilaterism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF16 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 chuck6660 said: AF16 There is a lot of merit to your your first two points. As for Israel and the Palestinian issue, I'm not sure what the best answer is. I am not an expert on the Palestinian's, but I have several questions: Was there ever a nation of Palenstine? If so, was Palestine a nation when Israel was created? And lastly, if they are so concerned about the blight of the Palestinian people, has Syria, Jordan, Egypt or any other Arab nation offered to provide a homeland to the Palestinian people. These are several points I often hear during discussions of this issue, the answers are various depending on which side of the issue someone stands. IMO the Bush administration is best served by not tying the Israeli - Palestinian issue to Iraq and the GWOT. :: The palestinians, contry or not, lived on the place called Israel. The Israelis came and took their land. They became pissed and the Arabs who hates Israel, slightly more than they hate the Palestinians, became pissed. It's a focus point that creates conflicts. Sadly now Isral have occupied Palestinian land by sending in settlers, the same situation that the English did in Ireland where there also are two sides who have the 'right' to the same piece of property. Eternal war. That is a part of the explosive situation in the ME, and it's a part of why so many there hates the US. The US is blatantly unfair in the conflict. The sad thing is that when you asked the ME about the US before Iraq it was a picture of admiration and desire. They did not like US politics, but like America. You had a chanse to make some friends ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF16 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 McBif said: Evel_Penivel said: Until 1967, there were no Palestinians, even in Arab usage. Palestinians are esentially generic Arabs. I wish anyone could explain the cultural, linguistic, or any other difference between a Palestinian and a Jordanian. EP, Excellent point. It astounds me how the entire world has been suckered over this. As I perhaps intemperately asked another poster recently: Do they speak Palestinian there? The Palestinians were the gypsies of the ME, loathed by everyone, and certainly had no support for anyting in the ME by the Arabs. Only the hatred towards the Jews gave the Palestinians the support they needed. Still the Palestinians did live in large parts of Israel, you can not get by that, and they wantet to keep it that way and wanted to be a country governing them self. Israel got a part of the land for their contry and they took more spewing in settlers from all over the world in order to steal the land and vital strategic parts in violation of UN resulotions. The US blocked every attempt to get a deal that were more evenhanded towards the Palestinians and blocked any hint of critizism towards Irael. Got you a shit load of friends hu? Excelent place to start getting friends if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Abbas is asking for a referendum based on the so-called 'Prisoners Proposal'. Which means mutual recognition with a return to the 67 borders and a capital in Jerusalem. The Palestinians, minus Hamas hardliners, will certainly go for it. It's essentially the same deal Clinton struck with Barak and Arafat. Which will put the ball back in Israel's court. Which will mean another Olmert trip to Washington so they can bounce the ball right back again. All assuming Abbas doesn't get bumped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBif Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Gents, Re: "Palestine" I guess everyone who watches CNN does know the detailed history of the Middle East, so it is not at all surprising to them to hear that "Palestine" never existed... I imagine we're all feverishly Googling away between posts here. I know I am. NP is fun in more ways than one. Educate yerself at NP and keep the Alzeimer's away! Hey, any one of us could trash some poor yob who expressed some half-digested idiocy he picked up while watching Larry King. He wouldn't know what hit him. All right. We know that the early Jewish settlers in the 1880s escaping the pogroms in Russia and later after 1905 bought, not stole, the land they settled from absentee landlords. The whole Middle East at the time is run from Istanbul. Time went by and a couple of little things called WWI and WWII happened. WWI shows the door to the Turks and "Palestine" is declared a British Mandate by the League of Nations. Fast Forward. Six million Jews perish in WWII (So they say - I'm not sure it was quite that many, but it was enough). The survivers are kinda pissed. Just to try to capture the flavour of the times, picture future Israeli PM Menachem Begin as commander of the Irgun terrorist gang personally torturing to death two British officers. Fact. Anyway, "Palestinian" still refers to Jews, Christians and Arabs living in the area. Blah, blah. The 1948 war breaks out. 600,000 Arabs (who still don't call themselves Palestinians, you will note) scarper. Today a lot (most?) of them still live in the "temporary" refugee camps run by the good old UN. By 1967 they start to call themselves "Palestinians". Does anyone know why? I'm seriously asking. I haven't Googled it but I've always assumed it was for propaganda purposes by the PLO. You know: "Our nation! We demand our sovereign rights!" etc. Imagine if you will the tens of millions of refugees in Europe after WWII still sitting around in 2006 in camps run by the good old UN. You may ask yourselves, WTF? Fast forward. The state of Israel has accepted 800,000 Arab immigrants. 20% of the population. They are the only Arabs in the world who can vote, who enjoy civil liberties, etc. That is, other than in the currently shaky (but not so shaky as CNN and many of our members like to paint it) state of Iraq. The Arab controlled land mass of the Middle East stands at something like 99.9%. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a lot. I think we all know why they haven't been resettled: the Palestinian Arabs are being used as pawns by their Arab brothers to deal with the hated Jews who, with 1% of their population, have whupped them again and again and again. The Arabs cannot stand it!!! Never mind "justice" and all the bullshit. These are a proud (and pathetic, IMO) people and they cannot stand it!!! My question is, Why the vituperation against the Jews? Another thing that every CNN viewer no doubt knows is that Israel was founded as a social democratic state. Run by the Labour Party. Russia was the first country (I think) to recognize Israel and armed them before and after the '48 war. The Americans didn't get involved until the '67 war started. But my question again, Why the vituperation against the Jews? The Europeans who froth at the mouth at the mere mention of the word "Israel"... WTF? I used regard Jews who screamed "Anti-Semitism!" when you questioned a detail or two about Israel's current policies were carrying it a bit high. I'm not so sure now. Europe. Behind the dancing Bavarians, the tall smiling Dutch, the sexy Italian babes (well, in the north), the "sophisticated" French, the cosy Danes, the shiny, streamlined, caring, cradle-to-grave welfare Superstate I see.... dark, ancient, irrational fears. I see the reptilian brainstem. I feel the crazy, fearful northern forests. I shudder... They live in a sort of paradise on earth (barring the odd Muslim riot), an Anne of Green Gables la la land. Something's gotta give! Man is a terrible animal. Something's gotta give... Keep on Googlin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 "Scarper"? That's a strange word to use after an event like the massacre at Deir Yassin. But it's pretty obvious where your sympathies lie. Whenever I see 'Palestine' in inverted commas I know it means the refugees should just stop complaining and get over it. Just a bunch of losers right? European refugees after WW2 got returned or resettled. A lot of Palestinians have resettled in Arab countries, and in the US, but return is not an option for them. Do you have any idea what a Palestinian has to go through just to visit relatives in Gaza or the West Bank? Those places are big prisons basically. Like it or not they were kicked out of what became Israel by well-financed superior forces. That's not anti-Semitism. That's history. And Arabs are Semites anyway. You can tell them to suck it up or move to Jordan or something but many of them can't or don't want to. Maybe when they run out of water they will have no choice but we aren't quite there yet. You may have a point about some of the people who criticize Israel's policies but does that mean Israel is above criticism? There are plenty of Israelis who feel bad about it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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