MaiLuk Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Zorro, >>It is really a sad and pathetic indictment against our own leaders. << I can't speak for other countries. But as it stands here in the US, I blame the citizenry as much as the leadership. I won't go on another rant about what a chicken shit society we have turned into in the US, but the whole scenario is as you described. People are obsessed with safety here and will allow any government act to proceed as long as the whitehouse says "it will keep us safe" from those obscure terrorists living in a hole somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Yes, you could argue that you get the leaders you deserve and so in fact we can lay the blame at the feet of the citizenry themselves. I think there is an element of that no doubt. However i think things are a little more complex than that. The media, the spin doctors and the vested interests are so powerful that the average person is ill equiped to deal with the amount of propaganda coming their way. Further the average person is so selfish that as long as their rice bowl is full they don't give a flying f**k what is going on anywhere else. The Romans gave their peasants bread and circuses to keep them under control while today we have sports and our electronic gadgets to keep us modern day peasants amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 "...that the average person is ill equiped to deal with the amount of propaganda coming their way." That might be true to some extent but you forget that there are checks and balances. The New York Times, again, is not ill equiped to deal the amount of propaganda coming its way. BTW I still haven`t got an answer from the conspiracy theorists why such a passionately Bush critical newspaper as the NY Times has not published the story of the inside plot on 9.11. Can it be because there is no such story? Next thread will probably present compelling evidence about the existence of UFOs, better log out before that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 The problem is your average Joe doesn't read the NY Times. He probably gets his news off the tv via Fox. Now that is scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 "...BTW I still haven`t got an answer from the conspiracy theorists why such a passionately Bush critical newspaper as the NY Times has not published the story of the inside plot on 9.11. Can it be because there is no such story?..." A few reasons, #1 of which could be fear. Additionally, before they go throwing around any "theories" they do need proof/facts/evidence, which, with out a formal, non-bias investigation, they will not get the facts. My understanding on this is, the government has officially closed all the books on this investigations...can anyone say Warren commission? Clearly, there is enough evidence to reopen the investigations. Incidently, I believe the New York times (or one of the major papers) did report the government spent more money investigating Bill Clinton then 911. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 No, NY Times has never been afraid of the government. The simple fact is that there are no convincing evidence. In an act of responsible citizenship maybe you would consider submitting the evidence you got to one of the editors or op-editor. Try Tom Friedman, his attacs on Cheneys irresponsible energy policy - lack of policy that is - has been a joy to read. No use limiting your scoop to the Nana Plaza crowd, they have other priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Dude, the experts have stated their opinions on both sides of this issue, tons of stuff/documentries reports, testimonials have come up/out, they are out there on the internet, in print, on DVD etc...all worth a look and then decide. Just take a look on the net. A lot of stuff was supposedly put out in France and Europe, stating the buildings appeared to have been brought down with controlled demolition. WTC1 and 2 have been explained away, but still no logical explanation for Building 7. The problem is getting mainstream media to print them, and entertain the notion that there could be something to all the theories opossing the "official reports." Fact remains, the "official" investigation was biased, and was halted practically before it got started. In fact very little if any investigation. It amazes me, that people will accept that we would go to war based on a lie or severel lies, pretty much for oil/money, killing 100's of thousands of people, but would never even consider something like wacking a few thousand at home as a justification for a "war on terror." We'd lie about the reasons for war, but NEVER about 911, trust us now kids. Look, we don't want to believe we could produce a Hitler or a Stalin or a Hussain in this country. But facts are, WE produced Marcos, The Sha, Noreiga and to many South American dictators to mention, Hussain, and BIN LADEN! They were created by elements of our own government(s). What makes you think these elements could *never* raise to power or take contol of the US government? 2 rigged elections...? I don't blindly believe any/all the conspiracy theories at all, all I am sating is, they do warrent a closer look, based on previous crap this government has done in the passed. As long as there are "expert" engineers who put their reputations on the line, and are willing to say they believe controlled demolition was used, then it should be considered, and further investigated. That is all I am really trying to say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Read retired Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney's history of Delta Force and see what he says about the POWs/MIAs left behind in 1975. Haney says that on two seperate occasions, Delta Force was ready to go into Laos and get them. They knew where they were, about how many and even who some of them were. But both times unwanted publicity happened to prevent them from going in -- and he is convinced that some former high ranking politicians did it because they didn't want the embarrassment of any live POWs showing up after the war. Even one of Hanoi's top politicians asked him point blank why the US never tried to get back the rest of its POWs. Never put anything beyond a self-serving politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 "As long as there are "expert" engineers who put their reputations on the line, and are willing to say they believe controlled demolition was used, then it should be considered, and further investigated. That is all I am really trying to say here". If that is all you were trying to say, I will not argue further (well I will not argue further anyway). But I did read much more in your postings. However as a non-American and outside the Atlantic sphere I can`t but be amazed that American citizens find it highly likely that their own democracy - a model for many of us in the free world - is governed by murderers, possibly of Hitler-like manevolence. And that you let it be with that without creating an uproar. Again, said that at this point I leave it to the Americans to fight out this problem between themselves. Dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 "free world" - Ok I know that the Cold War s over, but America did save us from totalitarian tyranny. Just a short post scriptum: As a European I am so totally fed up with some of our own opinion makers - and some politicians - who exagerate their anti-Bush propaganda in order to feed strong underlying anti-American sentiments in their countries for their own political gains. Those people not only hate Americas power and strength but even more Americas greatness. America is in my view the true "Faustian" nation in the sense that it is forced to act: "Tätigkeit ist dein Schicksal!" To be active is your destiny! But you cannot act without causing damage - collateral or not - and for this you will be hated. Maybe Bush and his team might be well aware of this "Faustian" obligation to act but they don`t measure up to the leadership needed. Rather this shortcoming than some evil design is what I find most negative about Bush and his group. But again, it´s ironic that I from Bush bashing Europe should try to temper Bush hatred from American citizens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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