New Book: God is Not Great

[chuckwoww]

Ah, the tub of ice cream was a naughty little joke. You are a card Phil. Actually I knew you had more sense.

 

So back to your original question that got us off on this fascinating little philosophical tangent...who cares? You do.

[McBif]

Right. Buddhism isn't even a religion if you define religion as having a deity. There are agnostic Jewish humanists and Christian atheists too...figure that one out. It all basically reinforces the idea that man made god and not the other way round.

 

Reminds of a small joke Hitchens tells in the book about a chap driving at night in Ulster. He's stopped by armed men at a roadblock who ask him if he's a Catholic or a Protestant.

 

Thinking quickly, he says he's an atheist.

 

"Are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?" they ask.

[bjon045]

I am agnostic, I think it is scientifically impossible currently to prove the origins of the universe so a divine hand could be present, to discount that possibility would make one ignorant I believe.

[McBif]

 

Hardwired religious response McBif?? Nope...i think there's a desire to conform in built, a need to congregate with a collective understanding, so we feel 'part' of something, research proves this....also there's evidence to suggest increased levels of Dopamine are found in those of a 'spiritual' leaning...but not all of us are wired the same. I've explored most religions, looked at the doctrines...nothing even remotely interests me. It's all so obviously garbage, that i'm embarassed for our species that so many of us are so pathetic and easily duped.

 

Well, 'hard-wired' in the sense that most people seem to need to believe in something bigger than themselves, or, as you suggest, to feel they are part of a group.

 

With the spectacular collapse of religious belief in the West since 1918 and the equally spectacular collapse of nationalism since 1945 there is a void today that most people fill with Paris Hilton. Amongst thinking people that need is perhaps filled by - dare I say it? - Left-wing politics.

 

Believe me, if you wanna be the loneliest man in town, start sneering at the Left. If you wanna be a real rockin' rebel, that's the way to do it.

 

Moving right along, Hitchens doesn't think there is any sort of religious impulse, of course. His angle is that religion was invented by a bunch of flea-bitten nomads who didn't know anything about the world and understandably invented answers for it. It is, says Hitch, inexcusable today.

 

 

 

[Faustian]

I am agnostic, I think it is scientifically impossible currently to prove the origins of the universe so a divine hand could be present, to discount that possibility would make one ignorant I believe.

 

It's scientifically possible to prove the origins of the universe, we just don't have all the information and therefore answers, at this juncture, but we will...we will...

 

Knowing what i know, it's impossible for me to adhere to any form of belief in some diety...really, it's just such total nonsense, in it's current form...call me ignorant, if you like, i prefer the notion that i'm better informed than most. Maybe that's part of my ignorance, if so, so be it.

 

[Steve]

I've long disagreed that mankind would do better without religion. I won't dispute that more evil has been done in the name of religion than any other reason but I would suggest that mankind is basically flawed and would commit atrocities against each other if there was no religion. The USSR and communist China banned religion and look at the atrocities that occured in a society without religion. Hitler was devoid of religion as well.

 

Banning religion will not solve what is basically a human flaw.

[..]

I've long disagreed that mankind would do better without religion. I won't dispute that more evil has been done in the name of religion than any other reason but I would suggest that mankind is basically flawed and would commit atrocities against each other if there was no religion. The USSR and communist China banned religion and look at the atrocities that occured in a society without religion. Hitler was devoid of religion as well.

 

Banning religion will not solve what is basically a human flaw.

Sorry Choco, Hitler was very religious. A Catholic. To wit:

 

+++++++

 

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

 

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

 

He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

 

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."

 

Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

 

+++++++

 

Link

 

Kinda shoots your argument all to hell, doesn't it?

 

Cheers,

SD

[Old Hippie]

I seem to recall reading that Hitler and his bunch also were following some bizarre diet, and also dabbled in the occult.

[soongmak]

For me it's not a question of believing there's no 'god'...i know such a manmade creation doesn't exist. I think therefore i am. Anyone believing in any diety, as described in the various tomes written by various people, has something significant missing, like an ability to logically reason. There's monumental amounts of evidence to disprove religion, an yet people die daily because of it....ah well, Darwin was right.

 

There is a fatal flaw in your reasoning, and that is that you don't see that the existence of god and religion are two separate things. Although it is easy to dismiss religions because they defend dogma's that have been proven wrong by science, that does not prove there is no God. Can you show me evidence that God does not exist?

 

Although I believe in God, I have little respect for organized religion. I believe that most religions are basically bastions of power and dogma's, and I think the world would be a better place without it. If you believe in God, how can anybody say that your version of God is superior to the interpretation of God in another religion? In religious wars, people don't fight for their God, but their belief that they are right and the rest is wrong. It's basically an ego thing.

 

I say God is great, but religion sucks. Big time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[..]

 

Can you show me evidence that God does not exist?

 

Uh, any educated person knows that you cannot prove a negative. Therefore, the onus is on you to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists.

 

Cheers,

SD