Welcome to America, bitch!

[Steve]

Interesting that the U.S. is still the number one place for people to try and get to and live in. Okay, a lot of them are from developing countries but there are tons..or should I say 'tonnes' of UK and Europeans here on overstayed holiday visas trying to live here. Craigslist is full of ads from euros looking for someone to marry for money so they can stay. At the pub I go to a good many of them are on overstayed visas.

 

The tourism is still doing great, especially given the weak dollar.

 

Of course the country has some f**ked up things about it. I've experienced or seen some of the worst of it from a unique position of being black. Maybe the U.S. is even more f**ked up than other western countries. Never a good thing and again, not an excuse but the strongest western countries are always the country that abuses its power the most. Nothing has changed from the days when the British had the biggest empire or other european countries that came to power. Its the nature of nations. And it doesnt' matter if they are a republic.

 

Being around a lot of foreigners on my travels EVERYONE complains about their own leaders. Is anyone ever happy about their elected leader a year in? lol. I was in LOS when Clinton was president and while watching soccer and no one knowing I was american I heard Brits say vile things about America and americans. Now they all say he was a good president for us. But at the time I still heard the 'septics' comments and other comments about America.

 

America has a love for all things British. The one country we would fight for over any other. Even Canadians who we are the closest to in terms of culture. I was never a anglophile but I did share a fondness as well...until I got into football (soccer). Let me qualify that I've met some very dear people who are now my dearest friends who are English. A few on this forum. However, when I recall (and still now and then) getting some of the most vitriolic statements from Brits when I got into football. Nothing I said about my club even to other Arsenal fans could be right for the simple fact that I was American. More than a fair number would greet any football comment with anti Americanism. The one thing I learned about traveling is that Brits don't share the same fondness. Not even close. All well and good but I think if the average American here who never travels and doesn't hold a passport actually knew how much we were never really liked, that special relationship may be in jeapordy somewhat.

 

I honestly believe we could elect Gore or even Carter again and it wouldn't matter...as long as our stature remains as the worlds most powerful nation endures. I call it the 'Manchester United' syndrome. No matter what they do they will be the most hated club because they are the biggest and most successful. Disliked simply because they are the biggest. I was the same way. It was the one club I have heard of so I knew I would never support them. Its the 'NY Yankees' syndrome here as well.

 

Lets just call it what it is. Its the reason why any American injustice or infraction is posted on here instead of Chinese or Russian injustices. As soon as one of them becomes the top dog the same will happen to them.

 

The Americans on this forum who complain bitterly about the states and about leaving are in the minority. Americans aren't lining up to leave, the same 10 or 20 percent that hold passports are still the only ones that have passports.

 

I am not angry. I am a pragmatist and realist and try and to see things as truthfully as possible. Its completely understandable about the feelings against the U.S. I know the reasons as stated above. What I find interesting about those that that have a problem with it, is either they are dishonest about those reasons (the man yoo syndrome) or they are from the euro school of 'we're more cultured and advanced socially and politically than those yanks' school. And are as arrogant or more arrogant than the American government they complain about. The other interesting thing is truth be known is that its in style to hate America. And trust me, its the fashion and has been for decades. In fact, you'd be widely ridiculed for nary a complimentary word about the USA, the leaders of the west want a great relationship with America. You all keep electing leaders that don't reflect public sentiment. Yes, there are notable little things like a no vote on the UN security counsel or a pulling of troops from here or there or a non support of something of a minor nature. But nothing on par or even close to the feeling and sentiment of the people they govern who would like something up to or including cutting off all diplomatic relations. And you know why? Because realpolitik takes over. Its not America bullying the UK or Europe or Oceania, Japan, etc. to maintain a political/economic relationship. Its the other way around. Its in their self interest to remain close to the U.S. There are fringe parties in all european countries that would cut off relations with the U.S. over Iraq, Kyoto, etc. Why don't you all elect them? Because you don't want to. Deep down its there is this hypocracy. You dislike us but don't want to admit you need us. Economically, politically and god forbid even militarily. The leaders know that.

 

Now, I'm no flag waver. I plan on leaving the U.S one day if I can save enough money. I'd love to spend the majority of the rest of my life in Asia or South America. But I will also reiterate something I've said a long time on this forum, that America is no where as great as Americans think it is but its also no where as evil as europeans think it is as well.

[Flashermac]

One of my profs told me about being in India at the time MLK was organising his marches. An Indian businessman started giving him hell over the treatment of black Americans. The prof asked him how he could criticise the United States, when India had its very strict and often worse caste system. The Indian replied, "But you're suppose to be different."

 

 

[Steve]

lol...we are judged (rightfully so I think) to a higher standard. All western countries are but we are the most of any. I have been asked on occasion why I would still live in the U.S. given its historical and to some extent present day treatment of blacks and I replied where else would I live? For all its problems its still one of the few places where an immigrant can come penniless and become a millionaire or a black guy end up at the helm of Merrill Lynch or Time Warner. I don't know of a comparable western country with a sizable black population (England, France, Holland or even Canada to a lesser extent) that has any blacks in the same numbers in positions of power in its government or in its corporations. Why is that?Still, if I hit the lottery you'll find me on the beaches or Rio or Phuket.

 

Your illustration also reminds of a good friend of mine from Dublin here who thought it was silly to dismiss people based solely on ethnicity but I asked is it any less based on religion? I can't look at some Irishman and tell you he's a protestant or catholic.

[ALHOLK]

Interesting that the U.S. is still the number one place for people to try and get to and live in.

 

I'm sure you're right there but at least in Sweden their numbers have dropped dramatically over the last 30 years.

 

The tourism is still doing great, especially given the weak dollar.

 

I'm sure this is true but this too is changing. In the mid seventies after the Vietnam war, the US dollar was at a rock bottom level just about every young Swede wanted to visit your country. Today they are considerably less although they still exist.

 

Lets just call it what it is. Its the reason why any American injustice or infraction is posted on here instead of Chinese or Russian injustices.

Possibly not, the Russians and Chinese don't to pretend to be something they are not. They don't pretend to fight for freedom and justice. I wonder if the victims of Gitmo and other torture camps think they got any justice. They most definitely don't have any freedom.

The US fighting for democracy? Please, they have supported every brutal right wing dictator during my life time. Furthermore they supported Saddam Hussein in the war that he started against Iran. They also basically created Usama bin Laden. Only reason being that he was against the Soviet Union.

Furthermore they supported Pol Pot, the only reason being that he was fighting against the Vietnamese who had kicked major arse with the the American invadors.

 

Its in their self interest to remain close to the U.S.

 

After the shrubs statement after he refused to sign the Kyoto agreement: "The American way of life is not negotiable." my only commet is:

 

It is hardly in the interest of people to destroy the planet they are living on.

 

 

[Guest lazyphil]

great post steve. i'm due a visit to my local war museum at duxford where george bush senior opened the american hanger full of b52s and hueys and ww2 hardware :thumbup: . i drive by the madingley american cemetry quite often (an incredible place, very moving when you walk around it), the university gave land to the us govenment to bury those fallen heros that helped keep the nazis at bay..... although we did soften them up for you :smirk:

[Steve]

First of all. America and Americans have never claimed to be perfect. One of the few countries that will air its 'dirty laundry' due to the freedomes we enjoy that a lot of other countries don't. You may not think its a country that fights for freedom but your (collectively speaking) leaders do in Europe as the U.S. is still the country called upon to help others fight for their freedom. It was Europe that came calling to America to lead the fight for freedom in Bosnia.

 

I would also like to ask if the various european countries dont' make the same claim and if they don't perhaps they are 'honest' about it not fighting for it, internally or externally as well.

 

Also, despite your view, its still in the minority the world over. Again, America doesn't live up to it any more than any individual tries to live up to their own personal goals of living a life of truth and integrity. Not achieving it is normal. Admitting you're not isn't.

 

As for the Swedes you know, they are probably of the same political slant and therefore won't visit but the rest of your countrymen and women don't share your view.

 

Swedish visits to the U.S. has gone up increasingly from '94 to '00. It fell off dramatically in 2001, just like all other countries due to 911. The Swedes have started coming back again. In ever increasing numbers since '03. Just like everyone else.

 

The rest of your post was personal opinion and not factual so pardon me if I dismiss it as that (as is part of my post to be fair). However what is FACT is that your governments (collectively speaking) don't share your view and wish to maintain not only good relations with the U.S. but also seek the U.S. to fight for freedom and justice around the globe...because they can't.

[Flashermac]

<< Furthermore they supported Pol Pot, the only reason being that he was fighting against the Vietnamese who had kicked major arse with the the American invadors. >>

 

Yeah ... 1 million dead versus 50,000.

 

 

 

[chuck6660]

First of all. America and Americans have never claimed to be perfect. One of the few countries that will air its 'dirty laundry' due to the freedomes we enjoy that a lot of other countries don't. You may not think its a country that fights for freedom but your (collectively speaking) leaders do in Europe as the U.S. is still the country called upon to help others fight for their freedom. It was Europe that came calling to America to lead the fight for freedom in Bosnia.

 

I would also like to ask if the various european countries dont' make the same claim and if they don't perhaps they are 'honest' about it not fighting for it, internally or externally as well.

 

Also, despite your view, its still in the minority the world over. Again, America doesn't live up to it any more than any individual tries to live up to their own personal goals of living a life of truth and integrity. Not achieving it is normal. Admitting you're not isn't.

 

As for the Swedes you know, they are probably of the same political slant and therefore won't visit but the rest of your countrymen and women don't share your view.

 

Swedish visits to the U.S. has gone up increasingly from '94 to '00. It fell off dramatically in 2001, just like all other countries due to 911. The Swedes have started coming back again. In ever increasing numbers since '03. Just like everyone else.

 

The rest of your post was personal opinion and not factual so pardon me if I dismiss it as that (as is part of my post to be fair). However what is FACT is that your governments (collectively speaking) don't share your view and wish to maintain not only good relations with the U.S. but also seek the U.S. to fight for freedom and justice around the globe...because they can't.

 

Well said

 

[ALHOLK]

First of all. America and Americans have never claimed to be perfect.

 

Perhaps not but they more often than not claim the moral high ground.

 

It was Europe that came calling to America to lead the fight for freedom in Bosnia.

 

This is true of course. My personal view was that Europe should have gotten thir shit together and sorted out their own problems.

 

As for the Swedes you know, they are probably of the same political slant

 

I have worked with people from all parts of the political scale and mostly with professionals. I'm not sure what you are implying with the expression "political slant". We have never met and most likely never will so it is obvious that you don't have clue what you're talking about.

 

and therefore won't visit but the rest of your countrymen and women don't share your view.

 

Obviously you know much more about Sweden and Swedes than I do. After all I have only lived here all my life.

 

Swedish visits to the U.S. has gone up increasingly from '94 to '00. It fell off dramatically in 2001, just like all other countries due to 911. The Swedes have started coming back again. In ever increasing numbers since '03. Just like everyone else.

 

Obviously visits in absolute numbers will increase when the cost decreases. I never stated that no Swedes want to go to your country. My claim was that the percentage has fallen dramatically.

 

The rest of your post was personal opinion and not factual so pardon me if I dismiss it as that

 

The refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol IS a fact.

 

However what is FACT is that your governments (collectively speaking) don't share your view and wish to maintain not only good relations with the U.S. but also seek the U.S. to fight for freedom and justice around the globe...because they can't.

 

Yes that is a fact and I was personally saddened to hear our conservative PM, that I voted for, say positive things about Bush after a visit to Washington.

 

[ALHOLK]

Yeah ... 1 million dead versus 50,000.

 

I know how important body counts are to you Americans but the fact remains that the prime objective with the invasion was to stop the commies taking over the entire Vietnam. Guess who is in power in Vietnam today. Or in the words of Basil Fawlty: "Who won the bloody war anyway".