Supreme Court considers 'right to bear arms'

[Hugh_Hoy]

Hmmmmmâ?¦first, I think maybe the question should be asked as â??why do American pro-gun members of this board want a firearm.â? I believe this, as the term â??justifiedâ? implies the need to do just that: justify. When the constitution provides the right, no justification for ownership is required. Merely a â??desireâ? should be sufficient.

 

But more to the point, Iâ??m sure that there are many reasons. Hunting, protection from predators (wild animals and human), and various forms of target/sport shooting are probably the most common of the law-abiding citizens. Collectors of historical firearms are also among those who want to possess firearms.

 

HH

 

[Hugh_Hoy]

<<

In my hometown you can only use "lethal force" in self defence - i.e. if you are being attacked or threatened with attack. You cannot shoot someone who is fleeing, even if caught committing a crime.

 

Yeah...state laws vary among themselves and change periodically. CA, 40 years ago, allowed deadly force against "fleeing felons". Since pick-pocketing was a felony, you could theoretically use deadly force if the perp kept running after telling him to stop :-)

 

Most law enforcement agencies, today, have policies against using deadly force on fleeing felons unless they are an immediate threat to the public or the officers in pursuit.

 

HH

 

[unit731]

Early commentary US 2nd Amendment

 

The earliest published commentary on the Second Amendment by a major constitutional theorist was by St. George Tucker, also known as The American Blackstone. He authored a set of law books in 1803 that annotated Sir William Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (discussed at length later, under Colonial Rights), for American use, and that formed, in many cases, the sole legal written works read by many early American attorneys.[44] Tucker, the leading Jeffersonian constitutional theorist, was widely read, even by those who rejected his interpretation of the Constitution.

 

In footnotes 40 and 41, he wrote: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Amendments to C. U. S. Art. 4, and this without any qualification as to their condition or degree, as is the case in the British government." and "Whoever examines the forest, and game laws in the British code, will readily perceive that the right of keeping arms is effectually taken away from the people of England. The commentator himself informs us, Vol. II, p. 412, "that the prevention of popular insurrections and resistance to government by disarming the bulk of the people, is a reason oftener meant than avowed by the makers of the forest and game laws."[44] Blackstone discussed the right of individual self defense in a separate section of his treatise on the common law of crimes. Tucker's annotations for that latter section made no mention of the Second Amendment but cited the standard works of English jurists such as Hawkins.[45]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[simie]

HH, when I had a firearms certificate in the UK you did indeed have to justify why you should have one e.g. gun club membership for competition shooting etc show you had authority over land suitable for shooting where you wanted to take part in deer stalking or vermin control etc. The simple desire to have have one was not enough. The certificate was also not carte blanche to buy anything you wished either. You had to apply for or amend if you already had a certificate. Each firearm you required e.g. you might apply for say one .357 revolver and one .243 rifle. You would also have to apply for the amount of ammunition you wanted to hold and purchase at any one time e.g. purchase 100 rounds .357, 150 rounds .38 and 100 rounds .243. Hold 200 rounds .357, 300 rounds .38 and 200 rounds .243 etc.

Simie.

[Mekong]

Simie / HH thanks for the feedback.

 

I lost a very close friend back in the UK over 20 years ago, she was hit by a stray bullet from a gun as an innocent bystander who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I still ask myself the question "Why did that person carry a firearm?"

 

Hunting and protection of property are concepts I can understand and I can accept the argument for gun ownership based upon this, but the right to carry arms all the time is something out of my scope of conception.

 

At the end of the day it is a US issue, as I stated previously I have lived / worked in the States and decided against getting a Green Card when it was offered and moved on, its your rules and I will not poke my nose in.

[Hugh_Hoy]

Mekongâ?¦I can appreciate your inability to comprehend how somebodyâ??s life can be so senselessly taken away. Happens in our major cities nightly. In fact, my relatively small town of 100,000 people experiences similar occurrences about 5 times per year. Every one has been gang related in the last five years (Mexican and Asian gangs). Those are just the shootings. They donâ??t include the knifings.

 

Iâ??ll tell a bit of a story that happened some time ago. Itâ??s anecdotal, so probably doesnâ??t mean a whole lot. But, it illustrates how seemingly innocent trips to the store (or wherever) can end up getting fairly nasty. Itâ??s a true story which involved myself and two buddies.

 

So, to make a short story loooooooong:

 

It was a Saturday Spring morning and John and I got up early and traveled about 25 miles to Wilmington, CA. in Johnâ??s pickup truck. (Those who know the LA area will recognize the names of the towns I mention and their reputations.) We arrive at Freddieâ??s house about 7 a.m. to help him scalp his front lawn and prepare it for a new crop of grass. What had been his lawn for a few years was really a mixture of weeds. LOL. Anyway, we hoed and raked his yard until we had Johnâ??s pickup filled as much as we dared. Although we had tried to clean the grass of as much dirt as feasible, there was necessarily a certain amount that remained clinging to the roots of the grasses and it was beginning to reach itâ??s payload limit. So, off to the dump we go, the three of us ridding in the front seat.

 

The dump was a landfill located in Carson, a few miles up the road. John guided his truck through the gate at the dump and followed signs with arrows to the area of the dump where the morningâ??s refuse was to be deposited. We spot the location and John proceeds to back his truck up toward the obvious spot where the load should be dropped. We had a couple of shovels and a rake to push the grass/dirt mixture out of the back of the truck.

 

John stops his truck and we hear a voice. â??Donâ??t put that shit there! You gotta go back more.â? We look over and seen two â??dudesâ? sitting under an umbrella in sand chairs that looked like they had rescued from a previous dump run. John looks back over his shoulder in the direction of where this dude wanted him to go and then replied, â??Hey, I donâ??t have 4-wheel drive. The dirtâ??s too soft. Iâ??ll get stuck.â? Now, both of these sand chair occupants are BIG. Well over 6 feet and well over 230. And, well, like fucking crips or bloods who just got out of prison a couple of weeks ago and are only â??workingâ? at the dump as a condition of finding employment. John and Freddie are no taller than 5â??8â??â?? and 170 lbs.; me, 6â?? and about 230 (then). The guardians of the dump were in their 20â??s; we in our 40â??s. Interesting match up.

 

The biggest of the two idiots says, â??You get stuck and weâ??ll pull you outâ?Â, motioning to a small tractor parked nearby. Upon which, the second brain trust adds, â??Yeah, for a priceâ?Â. And then he laughs like the idiot he obviously is.

 

â??Iâ??m not going back any further,â? John tells them.

 

I say, â??Fuck it. Weâ??ll drop the load hereâ?Â. And I get out of the truck and walk around to the back of the pick up and drop the tailgate.

 

The biggest idiot must have mustered all of his energy of the day to get up out of his chair. It was at that point that I saw he had a hatchet in his right handâ?¦and he was casually swinging it while walking toward the truck. He was still maybe 60 feet away, but was getting closer. He was â??quicklyâ? joined by his asshole colleague. Freddie tells them to put the hatchet down. Of course, the fool only smiles and says, â??I told you not to drop the load thereâ?Â. He doesnâ??t put the hatchet down and continues to shuffle toward the truck. By now, Iâ??m standing in the bed of the pickup and have a rake in my hand, kind of leading on it. But Iâ??m getting a bit nervous with my two compadres still in the cab of the truck. (â??You guys gonna sit there while I get chopped up into little pieces?â?Â, Iâ??m wondering. Freddie tells the guy again, a bit more emphatically, â??Stop and drop the hatchetâ?Â. The grinning fucker keeps coming. In the blink of an eye, Freddie reaches down and pulls a Walther PPK from a leg holster and displays it for both of these county employees to assess. Well, the fuckstick with the hatchet almost shits himself. He dropped the hatchet like it was a hot anvil and stops in his tracks. The other fucker goes running off.

 

Now was the fun part. While this big asshole was trying to explain that he â??only was doing his jobâ? blah, blah, blah, we were discussing if we should make him get up in the truck and unload it for us. LOL !

 

A few minutes later, a gentle old man comes around the corner followed by the second asshole whoâ??d taken off running. He couldâ??ve been their grandfather for all we knew. He inquired as to â??the problemâ? and the gun. John explained that these two â??assholesâ? (the term used).tried to get us stuck and then charge us to pull us out; then came at us with a hatchet. The old man was obviously in charge of the place. â??Well, that ainâ??t rightâ?Â, he says. â??Iâ??ll have to talk to themâ?Â. He leaves and we drop the load where we planned.

 

Funny thing was, Freddie lived in an area of â??transitionâ?Â. In other words, his neighborhood was gradually being surrounded by assholes and they were getting closer every year. Freddie was one of those guys some would call a â??gun nutâ?Â. He mustâ??ve had at least 6 or 7 handguns in his house. And Iâ??d forgotten that Freddie didnâ??t go ANYPLACE without one of them. (We used to joke that heâ??d take one to the crapper.) Freddie still gets his â??jolliesâ? with his guns. He lives in Arizona now, and at 70 years old he dresses up like Bat Masterson or Wyatt Earp or whoever and does quick draw competition from time to time. But god bless Freddie. Just displaying his weapon mighâ??ve saved somebody from dying that day at the dump. Personally, I donâ??t think I wouldâ??ve warned the asshole two times to drop the hatchet.

 

HH

 

 

 

[simie]

Mekong, as you said we are not U.S. citizens so the discussion does not really apply. I don't shoot anymore and hav'nt had a licence for a while so not really a bit issue for me either. But even though I have had guns in the past, like you the concept of any tom, dick or harry walking around with a hangun under their jacket is as alien to me as to you. Whilst some people may benefit from it in terms of saving themselves from assault etc many others would end up dead or wounded. A receipe for disaster in my book in all but the most extreme circumstances. As with your friend who died as a result. I mentioned on this forum a while ago on another thread the case of a chap my father knew when he was in the 8th Army in North Africa during the war. This lad took a captured Italian Beretta pistol as a souveniour. And then foolishly took it with him on leave to Cairo. He was involved in a drunken punch up in a bar and pulled the Beretta and shot a guy dead. What would have normally been a bar brawl resulting in a few sore heads ended up as a double tragedy with 2 mourning families, as the shooter was later hanged.

Simie.

[Guest lazyphil]

you have my sympathy for your loss mekong, a dreadful waste of life and for what. i personally have no interest in gun ownership its not my cup of tea as we say but as i keep repeating myself people die everyday-everywhere due to drunk drivers, maybe its a totally flawed comparison i dont know but it strikes me as really odd that it just keeps happening time and time again and nothing is done about it, ok, random police breathe checks, fines, bans, maybe custodial sentence but you can if you're lucky walk away scott free from the missuse of alcohol resulting in death.

 

[Steve]

I have lived and worked over there didn't like it and left.

 

Mekong, just out of curiosity, what about the U.S. didn't you like? Not offended in the least, just curious. I love the country dearly but if I had the money I'd probably live out my days elsewhere. Its just a benign question, no other inference should be made of it than a curiosity pursuit of mine.

[Steve]

 

[color:red]Governments have a right to regulate those firearms, a majority of justices seemed to agree.[/color]

I am inferring from this that none of the justices believe anything other than Americans having the right to bear arms.

 

To answer part of Mekong's question. Part of the reason I have read is that the framers had a mistrust of the power of a centralized government (as well they and we should be). If the government became too oppressive the people's last resort (and right) was popular insurrection. There is a reason why Hitler and Stalin didn't want the citizenry to own guns.

 

Its very understandable for those from countries that ban guns to scratch their heads or even be in horror that we have so many guns and that a country of this size allows the citizens to have guns. Just as I scratch my heads at the same countries that seem to have a derosion of civil liberties with the ban on guns, domestic spying via cctv, or laws that would be unacceptable and unfathomable to Americans and would be thoroughly rejected if similar laws were attempted here.

 

Some question the need. I see a need. For a myriad of reasons (hunting, home and personal defense, collectors items, etc.) the most important of which is to guard against a tyrannical government.

 

I've posted on this before. Any murder, injury or maiming or accidental gun death is tragic and one too many. However, Americans collectively have made a decision of free will these tragedies do not make enough of a compelling reason to ban guns totally. It would in other countries and they must make their own decisions, but for Americans we have chosen to keep our right.

There may come a time that we decide otherwise. The constitution makes a provision for this (Presidential approval, 2/3 of the congress and 3/4 of state governors) that would make it a popular and overwhelming choice of the vast majority of Americans.