Economical situation in LOS???

[cavanami]

"...The man's arrogance was mind-boggling."

 

What politician isn't arrogant?

 

GW Bush? Brown?

[khun_khon_neua]

She didn't know Thailand granted me fuck all for being married to one of its citizens apart from the "right" to get 1 year NON-IMMIGRANT visas after showing an income of 5 times the 2008 average Thai wage. If I were the father of Thai citizens I wouldn't get even that!

I told her I can't own land and houses, can't get PR nor citizenship, can't work most jobs, nearly always have to pay more than the Thais, am not equal to them in the courts and before the police and so on and on...

 

Letâ??s break your rant down into the individual pieces and address each one in an objective, factual, non-emotional way:

 

PR and citizenship- Your wife got PR in Italy from day one. But Thailand requires 3 years continuous extensions of a non-immigrant visa (which requires you to either have a job and/or income 5 times average Thai wage). First off, letâ??s be accurate and say the income requirement is 5 times the minimum wage. For the professional, middle class Thais, 40k a month is probably about the average. Thailand does not need Westerners working at minimum wage; they have every right to expect a westerner wishing to stay to have decent income. PR, though a somewhat long and painful process, is highly achievable. Most of the westerners I know with Thai wives that have lived her a long time have PR. If you read on Thai Visa, it is also possible, though again long and painful, to get Thai citizenship. Oh, and the father of a Thai can get a non-imm extension with no income requirement (see TV).

 

Owning Land- This seems to be the really big one, and I donâ??t understand it at all. My wife can own all the land and houses she wants, the fact that it is legally in her name and my name is not on the deeds does not bother me at all. We are married, committed to each other for life, it is OUR property, what is on a piece of paper in the land office is meaningless. I have no ego or insecurity problems with the situation, what is yours?

 

I am certainly not part of the â??smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologists brigadeâ? as you describe. I know exactly what the issues are with Thailand and how many of them could be solved if only they would take a western approach to them (like that is ever going to happen). I am very pragmatic, logical person that tries very hard to look objectively at all sides of a situation in order to find a reasonable solution that works for me. So far, I have not found a problem with Thailand that I cannot work with. Being bitter and hostile gets you nowhere and you, apparently, are living proof of that.

 

 

[Hardy641]

@Gobbledonk,

This thread was supposed to discuss Thai economics but unfortunately drifted more and more into a rant over injustices and inequities foreigners (not only Farangs) have to endure in Thailand.

First of all I agree, we, who living and working here in Thailand, should all be aware of these laws discriminating and disadvantaging foreigners. When deciding about moving into a foreign country and building a business it is my duty to weigh up the pros and cons. As these arenâ??t static an assessment into which direction the country is moving has to be made too.

I exactly did this and decided to move here in 1995 aware and despite the discriminating laws and a looming crisis because I was convinced that things will improve over the years so Thailand can move forward and take the next step. Looking back the years I must clearly say, if I would have known Thaksin and his political ambitions I wouldnâ??t have come here. Unfortunately in 1995 he was little known and his TRT party even didnâ??t exist. Well the rest is historyâ?¦.

While FICGJAM sounds bitter his points are mostly valid. He could have written them down without the rants and all would be fine. Over the last 8 years things havenâ??t improved but worsened for foreigners. So I can somehow understand FICKJAMâ??s frustration. Believe me it is a difference if you just come here for holiday or try to build some business. There are always people, in this case it is khun_khon_neua telling people that are frustrated about how things do work in Thailand it is not their country, why are you here then, and just go home. Well FICKJAM is going home so at least he is consistent. Still I believe people living here for years and invested significant amounts of money should have the damn right to speak out what is wrong in this country. I absolutely oppose the â??you are just a guestâ?? and â??it is not your countryâ?? fraction. I am working and living here or years, invested my money and paying my taxes, so I have the damn right to judge and comment on Thailand, its people and laws - rather than in my home country in which I havenâ??t been â?? except for short holidays - for over 15 years.

 

[Hardy641]

Letâ??s break your rant down into the individual pieces and address each one in an objective, factual, non-emotional way:

 

PR and citizenship- Your wife got PR in Italy from day one. But Thailand requires 3 years continuous extensions of a non-immigrant visa (which requires you to either have a job and/or income 5 times average Thai wage). First off, letâ??s be accurate and say the income requirement is 5 times the minimum wage. For the professional, middle class Thais, 40k a month is probably about the average. Thailand does not need Westerners working at minimum wage; they have every right to expect a westerner wishing to stay to have decent income. PR, though a somewhat long and painful process, is highly achievable. Most of the westerners I know with Thai wives that have lived her a long time have PR. If you read on Thai Visa, it is also possible, though again long and painful, to get Thai citizenship. Oh, and the father of a Thai can get a non-imm extension with no income requirement (see TV).

 

You only mentioned the conditions that qualify someone to APPLY for PR, that does not mean you will get one. Thaksin upped the price to 300,000 THB and each country gota yearly quota. A farang father of a Thai daughter does not get a VISAper se. This information is just wrong.

 

Anyway my point of critic is rather another:

I have to renew my WP every year, have to report every 90 days to immigration (if havenâ??t left the country) and if for some reason my WP wonâ??t be renewed I have to leave the country within days. This is quite different to the western world. E.g.: America granted illegal immigrants citizenships after being in the country for some years. My papers always have been in order, paid millions of THB in tax, created many jobs for locals, but still can be extradited within days.

 

 

Owning Land- This seems to be the really big one, and I donâ??t understand it at all. My wife can own all the land and houses she wants, the fact that it is legally in her name and my name is not on the deeds does not bother me at all. We are married, committed to each other for life, it is OUR property, what is on a piece of paper in the land office is meaningless. I have no ego or insecurity problems with the situation, what is yours?

 

Your line of argument here is absolutely childish and naïve and actually not worth a reply. If your marriage is so stable itâ??s great for you but to generalize this is damn hilarious. And what are the guys doing who arenâ??t as fortunate as you are? And the single guys? Oh yeah, they can register a company. I am sure you have some good Thai friends who will act as nominee for them. Very funny!!

 

I am certainly not part of the â??smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologists brigadeâ? as you describe. I know exactly what the issues are with Thailand and how many of them could be solved if only they would take a western approach to them (like that is ever going to happen). I am very pragmatic, logical person that tries very hard to look objectively at all sides of a situation in order to find a reasonable solution that works for me. So far, I have not found a problem with Thailand that I cannot work with. Being bitter and hostile gets you nowhere and you, apparently, are living proof of that.

 

I agree that being bitter and cynic does not help but looking through pink glasses doesn't help either. I believe every foreigner living and working for longer period in any country should have the right to highlight the shortcomings, isues and injustices.

 

[khun_khon_neua]

I started a point by point rebuttal, but decided it just wasnâ??t worth it. You are not â??highlight the shortcomings, issues and injusticesâ?Â, you are just whining, often with inaccurate or incomplete facts.

Everyone of your issues can be made into non-issues with a bit of action on your part. Being pragmatics is the opposite of looking through pink glasses. It is doing something about your problems and not wasting time ranting.

 

Thailand does indeed have some serious political and economic issues to deal with. None of them have anything do with how westerners live and work here. Those are non-issues.

 

By the way, have read about Vietnam and how well it is doing these days?

 

 

[gobbledonk]

OK - can I begin by saying that I accept that *all* of the sentiments expressed here are valid expressions of our individual perspectives - one of the things I like about this board is that it encompasses so many different points of view. I am not denying anyone's right to put their POV forward, merely expressing my concern that we dont throw any babies out with the bathwater.

 

Even as a mere 'holidaymaker', the health of the Thai economy can greatly impact me - how many of us choose Cambodia over Thailand for Sanuk, even if Cambodia's cost of living is much less ? How many of us want to walk down a dirt road to have sex in appalling conditions - for that matter, how many of us want to endure an Indonesian brothel (I have, and wont be going back anytime soon) ? For all the opportunism and the vultures feeding off the Farang in Thailand, CTO had it in one when he told me that 'the Thais really have got the whole hospitality thing happening', or words to that effect. Our dollar still means something here, and thats a situation that I hope will remain for a long time to come.

 

Cheers,

 

Gobble

[Hardy641]

You are not â??highlight the shortcomings, issues and injusticesâ?Â, you are just whining, often with inaccurate or incomplete facts.

 

Do I? If so please name the details. I am always interested in learning moreâ?¦

 

Everyone of your issues can be made into non-issues with a bit of action on your part.

 

Great to hear! I definitely would appreciate if you let me know HOW? I am sure a lot of fellow board members be interested too. Please let us all know your solutions.

 

Thailand does indeed have some serious political and economic issues to deal with. None of them have anything do with how westerners live and work here. Those are non-issues.

 

Sorry but are very wrong on this one. I am working and doing business in Thailand, so I am dependent on how well the economy is doing, the political stability and the laws, regulations and policies attracting or driving away FDI and foreign businesses.

I am not whining about how unfairly I am treated here, I am just expressing my disappointment that Thailand, since 2001, is missing various opportunities to move forward and instead turns more and more into â??banana republicâ?? benefiting a small part of society (Thaksinâ??s cronies and the old elite) while living conditions for the majority worsen.

 

By the way, have read about Vietnam and how well it is doing these days?

 

Definitely also has its problems (25% inflation, drain of brain to the US and overheated economy) but opposite to Thailand the Vietnamese government at least come up with policies meant to attract FDI and businesses. Thailand is either doing nothing here â?? and thus falling back against its neighbors â?? or even implementing/discussing policies having an opposite effect (30% capital controls) or at least diminish market confidence (nominee discussion/frequent change of policies).

 

[Hardy641]

No argue with this. The vast majority of Thais are very friendly to foreigners and their relaxed and laissez faire attitude makes Thailand a pleasant place to live. 90% of the Thai population even isnâ??t aware of the discriminating laws.

I think we are all aware of this.

 

My criticism is not directed against these folks but against the very small elite being responsible for all of this. As Gadfly correctly highlighted this elite is trying to safeguard their wealth, power and influence in society/politics by all means. They donâ??t care about the country, not about their fellow countrymen â?? they care about nothing/nobody except their own advantage. If Thailand wants to take the next step, the power of this old elite must be broken.

 

[tree187]

OK, so lets see if I get this right - you two want to see the Thai people, and the Thai economy, suffer because apathy, ignorance and corruption are widespread in the LOS? You want to see many of the people that we cross paths with daily unemployed and miserable, because their leaders are arseholes and they dont have the ability (or will) to fix any of that ?

 

"the people get the politicians they deserve' is an old saying and apt in Thailand.

 

If the peons in the towns/villages actually thought about things logically, rather than accepting a 500bht note to vote for the crook who is buying their vote then maybe things would be a lot different and there wouldn't be such crooks at the top.

[khun_khon_neua]

Have you applied for your PR? If not how can you even complain about it. Donâ??t like having to go to immigration and do your 90 day report, mail it in or pay someone a couple thousand baht to do it for you.

Yeah, Vietnam is attracting more FDI, but in what industries? The low cost labor ones such has textiles, which Thailand is being priced out of anyway as it continues it development. Now maybe I am somewhat skewed in my view as the industry I am in is going through the biggest boom time in history and only some of it is dependent on FDI and issues you brought donâ??t even come into the equation.

You remind me of my wife and how she talks about her business and how bad it is. Then I look at her books and so far this year, she is almost 20% over last year. She just likes moaning about how bad things are.

Anyway, enjoy your unhappiness, Iâ??m out of this threadâ?¦.