Central World

[Specialist]

I am quite certain Central World had a good sprinkler system. However' date=' electricity and water were shut off in the area, as part of the campaign to persuade the Red Shirts to decamp. Sprinklers don't work very well without water...

[/quote']

 

 

Sorry

 

You dont know your arse from your elbow on this topic, Sprinkler and Deluge Systems are designed to function in the event of total loss of utilites, hence the reason for firewater tanks and diesel firewater "Jockey pumps" etc

 

FFS, in the case of major incidence one assumes total loss of outside utilities, and design the system to be stand alone. I don't know what you refer yourself to be with the name "Specialist" but you sure know fark all about Fire and Gas or Safeguarding Systems.

 

Go Google NFPA, IEC 61508 and IEC 61511 and LEARN. Muppet

 

Thank you for your polite, reasoned, level-headed reply. Something must have gone severely wrong with their system. (I find it very difficult to believe that Central World wouldn't have a good fire protection system, even allowing for TIT.)

 

 

Specialist

 

I will try to be a litle bit more level headed in this reply, having three families of Bon Kai Refugees invading my space is wearing thin on me.

 

What I meant to say was that your undersatanding (as well as 99.9999% of the populations) of fire suppression and deluge systems and the thought process behind the engineering and therefore sizing of such systems is rather limitied, not that such is a bad thing.

 

Previous posts in this thread such as "Can Thai's Not Get Anything Right" really got to me, It would be interesting to know how many people who pass such comments are either a) qualified to do so and have had first hand experience of working with Thais and other nationalities to pass comment on their competance.

 

In a polite way I will reiterate the fact that

the fire deluge system installed in Central World was sized for "Known Worse Case Scenarios" and was fully tested at intervals in accordance with NFPA guidlines.

 

I just get pissed when people (not yourself per se) look down and say "Dimb Fuck Thais"

 

OK, on my side, I was repeating something I'd seen in one of the newspaper stories. I should have Rink'ed it.

 

Here's the root issue. Central World was torched, and gutted. FOR WHATEVER REASON, the fire suppression/deluge/sprinkler/WHATEVER system apparently did not make one heck of a lot of difference.

 

The armchair Monday-morning-quarterbacking analyst part of me is says this: If the Central World system was properly sized for the various "Worst Case Scenarios", was properly engineered, was properly installed, maintained, and periodically tested, and yet Central World is now a large smoking ruin, then SOMETHING in this column of figures doesn't add up. At this point, I will wait for the fire investigators's report.

 

[Mekong]

Fair Point for an armchair analyst, and I am sure that many people will be asking the same question.

 

I will try to answer you.

 

When Fire Risk analysis is done for any commercial building it is based on probabilites and possabilities based upon expected scenarios.

 

In the case of Central World the expected scenarios would have probably (sorry an assumption) been a couple of small fires in discrete locations, with known combustables, that would have been detected by the fire detection system and controlled accordingly resulting in localised fire damage. The back up for self contained fire suppression systems is the external fire risers ( The Red Pipes) which fire services if required can hook up to to assit in fire suppression.

 

In the case of Cenrral World it was far from "the expected", fires were started in numerous locations at the same time with the addition of external accellerants, furthermore fire services were prevented from assisting since as soon as they arrived on the scene they came under ginfire and had to retreat.

 

In all my years of being involved in engineering such systems, Fire Services being shot at and kept away has never been a probability I have ever considered.

[ozpharlap]

Fair Point for an armchair analyst, and I am sure that many people will be asking the same question.

 

I will try to answer you.

 

When Fire Risk analysis is done for any commercial building it is based on probabilites and possabilities based upon expected scenarios.

 

In the case of Central World the expected scenarios would have probably (sorry an assumption) been a couple of small fires in discrete locations, with known combustables, that would have been detected by the fire detection system and controlled accordingly resulting in localised fire damage. The back up for self contained fire suppression systems is the external fire risers ( The Red Pipes) which fire services if required can hook up to to assit in fire suppression.

 

In the case of Cenrral World it was far from "the expected", fires were started in numerous locations at the same time with the addition of external accellerants, furthermore fire services were prevented from assisting since as soon as they arrived on the scene they came under ginfire and had to retreat.

 

In all my years of being involved in engineering such systems, Fire Services being shot at and kept away has never been a probability I have ever considered.

Question, assuming the fire trucks had turned up, but the water mains had still been turned off (as the Specialist originally opined), where were the fire brigades going to get their water from? Sure, they have trucks with water in it, but that does not last long.

[bust]

Reality is most EWS and Sprinkler Systems are installed as a condition of the DA and Insurance requirements as are fire hoses and exstinguishers.

 

Would be interested to know if Central had a "flow switch" which would explain a lot.

 

If the fire was lit in several locations at once then maybe explains a lot as either it totally confused the system or the flow was redirected to the first detected fire allowing the others to burn freely.

[gladius69]

It is very sad. I first went in 1996 and was absolutely amazed. This is coming from a Southern Californian who grew up around hugh malls. WTC dwarfed everything we have. I was never upmarket and always found a the cheap places and good deals.

 

My wife worked at RTP HQ across the stree and we would meet there at Sizzler or MK for lunch. She loved to show her trophy farang bf off to her policegirl colleagues.

 

I saw alot of good movies there too. Once in a while I would take a worthy date to the Flying Fish floating sushi.

 

But here is my best memory. First, I am a military modelling and re-enactor. I used to a command a 10-man French WW1 squad for a big WW1 group out here in California. I was browsing through the hobby shop on th top floor (near the old Zen) and what do I see, 3 boxes of 1/72nd French WW1 soldiers. I bargained with the guy and got a good price. He knew they would never sell. Some farang geek like me comes in and wants all his stock. Done deal. I still have the diorama sitting in my classroom from when I made it in 1997.

 

Farewell.

 

 

[cavanami]

So now, when fire systems designs are done, i looks like a SWAT team will need to be added...WTF...isn't anything off limits anymore?

 

There is a klong near the site, so it may have been possible to pump klong water to fight the fire, while dodging bullets. This is beyond terrible!!!

[Mekong]

Question, assuming the fire trucks had turned up, but the water mains had still been turned off (as the Specialist originally opined), where were the fire brigades going to get their water from? Sure, they have trucks with water in it, but that does not last long.

 

Err Turn the water mains back on again!

 

Its only a valve, same as isolating incoming water to your property but on a much larger scale.

 

[ozpharlap]

Question' date=' assuming the fire trucks had turned up, but the water mains had still been turned off (as the Specialist originally opined), where were the fire brigades going to get their water from? Sure, they have trucks with water in it, but that does not last long.[/quote']

 

Err Turn the water mains back on again!

Err, they did not. Also, they broadcast beforehand that they would turn off the water, which other posters on another thread had indicated was probably not a smart thing to do.

 

In any event, you are right when you stated that there is no way that the building probably could have been saved due to the fire traps set therein. Equally so, some high rise buildings do collapse by fire with adequate fire safety in place and fire engines attending.

[Pom Michael]

Water for the hydrants and water for drinking and sewage are normally different - correct?

 

Or is TIT so water is water?

[shygye]

Water for the hydrants and water for drinking and sewage are normally different - correct?

 

Or is TIT so water is water?

 

Usually it is the same. Otherwise you would have to run twice as many water pipes.