harlequinbkk Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 [color:"red"] This is just to generalizing. Prostitution per se doesn't corrupts. It depends on the environment. Following parameters will influcene the degree of corrupting: Is it legal or not? Choose the prostitutes the profession because they like sex or because they are poor? What sort of customers do they have? Are the prostitutes respected in society? What are the work conditions? etc... Of course in our modern society, prostitution is considered as "bad", i.e. it is forbidden, looked down, not respected, ... And this is corrupting! [/color] Naiv, If I make offer a somewhat extreme example, consider the statement that "jumping off a tall building will not hurt you". Strictly speaking, this is true. The actual jump does not hurt, neither does the fall. But when you hit the pavement, well, that's another story. Jumping off a tall building will hurt you because you are initiating a sequence of events that is pretty much guaranteed to lead to your death (assuming you don't have a parachute and you don't land on anything soft). By the same token, when a young women enters into prostitution, she is also starting a chain of events that exposes her to corrupting influences. Of course, she may remain uncorrupted due to her inner strength or managing to avoid the more unsavory aspects of her profession. But relative to most other professions, I would say that the young lady has a higher risk of being corrupted. Perhaps if prostitution was well organized, legalized and respected in society, then it would not have any unusually corrupting influence. Harlequin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun_Kong Posted May 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Not addressed only to TTM. We can (and do!) speculate wildly about what lies we are told, about the moral dilemmas and values of BG's, about the corruption (or lack of it) by the sex trade on the girls, about the corruption (or lack of it) by the girls on the sex trade and all of the other points touched on by the above posters. Mostly, we speak our opinions, which may or may not represent realty, if , indeed, there is a single reality. Where we can state facts is when we talk about ourselves (and I was kinda hoping to see the thread turn this way). What untruths have we been responsible for and how have they corrupted us? Has anybody witnessed first hand the effects, positive or negative, of our own deceits? Getting back to speculation... What corrupting influence do we think these untruths have played, either on the scene or on the girls? I myself, in my first coupla trips, foolishly made too many promises of "call you, maybe you come visit me, I see you next time", compounded by giving out my date of return, eddress and cell#. I truly did not realize that this info would go into a seemingly indestructible file. It really just seemed to be part of a game of "you bullshit me and I bullshit you, we fuck, here's your money, hope we're all happy, especially me". After returning and seeing what looked like true hurt for the girls, which was expressed at the various levels that being hurt plays out (disbelief, anger, forgiveness, etc.), I had a lot of guilt and regret about MY actions. This was probably the reason I made the original post. For the several girls that I had gotten to know better, it seemed that a little piece of them had been chipped away and that they had to invest in another brick for the walls that they use to keep pain away. It most struck home for me with a particular girl, one that I spent many nights with and who I had emailed and telephoned after leaving TL. On my next trip (she knew when I was returning), I decided not to contact her. Ran into her by accident my first night back. Christ, I'd only been in BKK 2 hours! I told her that I was not going to see her this trip, lied (to protect me or to protect her, I still don't know for sure. Maybe a little of both) and said that I had to go north on business unexpectedly. Her big smile just dissolved, turning into, not anger, but emptiness, her bright eyes glazing over, as if to hide the confusion in her brain. I cannot help thinking that I've played my own small role in helping somebody to become just a little bit colder, a little more calculating, a little less trusting. Could we call that corruption? Maybe- part of the answer to this depends on what really happened inside of her- and that I don't know! Is she more healthy or more damaged following her experience with me? Anybody else have any lies they regret in this regard? And H-BKK: since when are politicians people? Fire when ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF16 Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 :: About selling sex: the greatest influence it has is that the girls themselves believe that they are doing something absolutely disgusting, that they are bad girls. And this affects their selfesteem. But why do these girls believe that they are bad? Because the society tells them so. :: That is a statement that I do not believe is true. It?s more to sexual moral than just norms. It?s a reason why sex is such a hot potato. True some of it is cultural, but there is more. :: I agree with you that in Thailand the working conditions of prostitutes aren't good. The girls are more or less forced by lack of other opportunities, poorness, low education, ... But the solution isn't to forbid prostitution but to make the living conditions better.:: No, the solution is to stop using prostitutes, and work to make the living conditions better. You can and should do both. Don?t use the ?lets make opportunities? be the justification for doing wrong. :: So you don't p4p? Good! Do you pay for nothing? Even better!:: I assume p4p means pay for prostitutes? No I do not and as I now spend time with a girl that works (for a short time more) I do not even have free sex (by own choice), because I remember her voice saying how she hurts when customers. I want to wait until she does not hurt anymore. Look, I have done some bad things in my life, but after seeing what is behind the closed door I had to change what I did, I have changed much of what I believe. Something had to give, either my actions or my humanity. :: So is paying for sex moraly bad? Hmm, depends on the prostitute! If she likes her job, why should it be bad?:: In general yes it?s bad. Look at what takes place in Thailand. Look at the stories. Look at what kind of sex takes place, how it affects the women, how it affects Thailand. That some might come out ahead does not change the overall picture. Its important to understand the concept of likelihood. Every ?bad? deed could have positive consequences, but still be wrong as a general rule. :: What will you do? 2? But she needs the money for her living. Isn't it better that I nice customer like you who she might like pays for the sex? :: All over the world there are people not paying for sex. People giving to charities, buying Max Havelar products, voting for politicians that care for people. People protest against exploitation of the third world. I can do a lot for these girls without paying them for something that is most likely for most bad. You could marry them, doing the right thing. There is a lot you could do Naiv. The problem is that this does not give the instant satisfaction that having sex does. I believe however that it leads to greater long time satisfaction, and that the easy way leads to a lesser self. Again I have done bad shit. I?m not a good person, but I can try to be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 By the same token, when a young women enters into prostitution, she is also starting a chain of events that exposes her to corrupting influences. I agree. I dislike somewhat the word corrupting. But if you mean by these corrupting influences that a prostitue is exposed more than usual to drugs (alcohol, tobacco, exstasy and the harder ones), to people with somewhat lesser moral (at least seemingly, not sure about that), to cheating, etc.. then I fully agree. Perhaps if prostitution was well organized, legalized and respected in society, then it would not have any unusually corrupting influence. That was my point. Now the question is still how much more corrupting this profession is compared with other ones. What do you think is more corrupting: Being a prostitute in Thailand or a politician? Consider that prostitutes might become corrupted because they are seduced by big amount of money. Now politicians are usually exposed to much more generous but illegal or dishonest offers. So should we try to extinguish the profession of politicians? Or should we try to change the conditions so that politicians are less exposed to corrupting influences? Best regards :: I hope that the moderator doesn't kill my example :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 All over the world there are people not paying for sex. Yes, they just lie, they say "you are the most beautiful girl, I love you, I will stay with you, ..." and then they have sex and leave after a while. Do you think if you go to thailand, seduce a GTG with promises and have sex for free, that this is better than paying her? (ok, I know your answer, of course you are against this cheating too) But there is a dilemma: People like sex. And there are different strategies, depending on your situation: 1) you have different girlfriends and change every month 2) you have one partner 3) you pay for one night stands with drinks, driving, paying the bill... 4) you pay for sex with cash 5) you like the girl but because she is poor you pay with cash 6) you don't have sex So what if you go with a prostitute wich you like and who likes you? Is this bad? And of course you pay (if not you profite from her). But ok, I agree with you that most customer-prostitutes relations in Thailand aren't good. But how can you satisfy the demand for sex without prostitutes? Because if you really want to solve the problem, you need to solve this first. You can try to tell the punters that they shouldn't have sex :: But it would be much more effective if you could them offer an alternative. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF16 Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Naiv I have no solution, and frankly there is none. Prostitution will always be there. All I can do is to decide how I will deal with it. It?s the same for everyone, and you to have decided how you will deal with the question. It?s a personal question. That others will chose differently is not an argument for me to act against what I feel is wrong for me, and wrong for the girl. I think you look at it to simplistically when you compare the Prostitution business with one night stands (which I have nothing against), but there you go. Difference of opinion. I think I have said what I have to say on this tread, everything I could say now would be repitition, so I?ll stop. Nothing personal if I do not answer you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 I can do a lot for these girls without paying them for something that is most likely for most bad.You could marry them, doing the right thing. There is a lot you could do Naiv. There are 2 different levels of action: One is how the society should solve the problem of prostitution (what I was speaking about). The second is how you as an individual act. Ok, I will tell you: Case 1: On my first visit I was with one bargirl who was a newbie. I liked her a lot, paied for her but we had never sex. (I even didn't kiss her). I fall in love in her and wanted to pay for her school. But during the visit she leaved me, probably because a friend (a professional) told her that there are better opportunities in Pattaya. Because she hadn't enough respect to stay with me till I go back home and because I had later a gf at home, I didn't send any money. The bargirl tried 1 and 2 years later to phone me, but it didn't work. I also tried to find her with no success. Case2: P4P only, ST, I am ashamed for that. Case3: Another girl which I liked. But she had a boyfriend allready, was waiting for him. I paid her. We have still contact. Case4: The last one. Actually I wanted to leave the p4p scene. Guess why! Because I make the mistake that I want only go with girls I like. But now I have still contact with her. I plan to see her again. And we will see what happens. My mistake is that I can't say no to a girl which I like and which shows interest in me. And because I know what she works I want to pay. I have never tried to get a freebie from a working girl. So my choice will be to stay away of the scene. And to look for GTG. But first I will see what happens with the last girl. But these are personal choices. No I do not and as I now spend time with a girl that works (for a short time more) I do not even have free sex (by own choice), because I remember her voice saying how she hurts when customers. I want to wait until she does not hurt anymore. Why don't you give her enough money so that she hasn't to work?!?! Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hi Khun_Kong, actually I want to leave the scene because I think that I could have a bad influence on the girls even if I try to be a "good" customer. And I know that the scene will have a corrupting influence on me (in the long term). So I will leave for now. Maybe when I am 60 years old and all GG (good girls) refused me I will think about returning again Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardinalblue Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Naiv, You raise a very interesting issue, the transition way from the bar scene. How to accomplish it and what is the success rate? I have watched some ex-pats here try to ease out of the scene with some or no success. The ones who take bgs as gfs and wish to remain in BKK seem to never leave the scene and they just keep going back for entertainment fix even if (big if) they are faithful to their new gf. The guys who take Non-BGs, it becomes much more of a culture shock for them as it is much more difficult for them to return to the scene. Non-BGs don't understand nor do they accept "i am going to NEP drinking with the guys tonight" as BGs do. Maybe its leverage that non-BGs have that BGs don't have? Which leads me to my next thought. After my years here and watching guys say they love the lifestyle, etc of LOS. Watching guys struggling to let go of the scene after they get into a serious relationship, I have become pretty sure this so called scene is really a serious addiction to nightlife/access to sex. I don't think it is any different from any other addicted habit like alcohol, drugs, smoking, over-eating, chewing tabacco, exercise (can be positive), etc. It is interesting seeing how each person handles and deals with the bar scene when they take on a serious relationship whether BG or non-BG. What are the effects on it on their new relationship? Is that the reason why so many guys who take on BG wives move away from BKK to upcpountry, chiang mai, etc. What do guys do when their non-bg gf or wife is born in BKK and wish to stay on LOS? Naiv, how are you going to stay away from the scene (is it an addiction for you yet?) and at the same time your strategies in trying to meet non-BGs? Cardinalblue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 OK, you should realize that people are not cars. We are much more complicated Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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