JJsushi Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 I see this exercise has come to a complete end. You remind me of a politican twisting and turning at every point and counterpoint till no one even knows what the point was to begin with. There is hope for you yet my friend. The last word is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlequinbkk Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 [color:"red"] My take is that many do become more dishonest towards their clients. It doesn't meant that they become more dishonest in general. They meet people who they lose respect for, because of their actions. Imagine how many drunks? How many who treat them like shit? there is a limit for trust towards clients when you have been beaten up and abused some times! Even, lets get back when you can.. Added to this comes whatever addictions they get, from doing a job which leaves them with mentally deep scars. And people who linger around them, trying to leech of this hooker who they have no respect for at all. Of course the longer time *many* spend in this environment the harder they become. Not all. And it does not mean those who are dishonest in the scene, takes it with them outside. [/color] Chek Bin, What you say is reasonable. I can see where some prostitute would be much more dishonest with their customers than others outside their profession. I would still argue that such a person has become corrupted, although I will concede there are mitigating circumstances. I also agree that not all of them become 'hardened' over time, but a signifigant fraction of them certainly do. They certainly are at a higher risk of being corrupted than if they had stayed on the farm. Harlequin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardinalblue Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 CBK & HBB, One is a product of one's environment and one will very soon take traits, attitudes and characteristcs of those in that environment. Yes, not everyone does at the same rate and same degree. Each person comes to the table with a set of existing beliefs, values, intelligence, weaknesses, strengths, etc. The environment has a much a greater influence on people than the nature part of the equation. The old expression is "if you live in a banana field, you soon start to eat bananas" holds a lot of merit here. These girls are no different than any other group. If anything, the influence of the enviroment would have on a greater impact on these girls collectively than another random, cross sectional group out of the general population. These girls are as homogeneous as you can get to start with. They are basically coming from the same geographic area, same backgounds, same issues, same problems, etc. or else they wouldn't be here in the first place. They are young, immature, very impressionable, uneducated, limited world life experiences, absolutely no postive role models in their lifves up to this point (or else they wouldn't be here - not say thier parents are bad as many don't know they are working bar). You take this group and then trust them into an enviroment where drugs, smoking, drinking, quick money thru deception and lying, stealing, and where greedy, shady and manipulating characters lurk. I don't even see where this issue can even be debated whether this is a corrupt environment or not. In the big picture and their future, the girls are victims of the circumstances. What do they take away from this experience other than cold hard cash at the sake of sacrifiing their bodies but most important their inner self? I have never met a group of people who have such low self-esteem and zero confidence in any their abilities other than performing sex/showing fake affection. It is incredible sad. I give credit to the girls who can find a decent guy that allows them to escape this environment but the long-term success rate is not great. So many end up right back in it when that relationship goes south as they have no other viable options to them. In order to survive day to day and actually thrive (meaning generating greater cash), they must take their victimization and turn the tables so other people become victims of their image acts and practices. If they don't do it, then they might leave the scene rather quickly (within a month) which does happen with a number of the girls. For the others, they must adapt to the corrupted environment. Some are just better at it than others...... Cardinalblue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legover Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 ?not say thier parents are bad as many don't know they are working bar? Often mothers introduce them to bar work & manage their early stages. Seen this personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Says Fiery Jack: Believe it or not, if you make a promise to a BG, her first strategy, her Plan A, is to BELIEVE that promise. OK, she'll fall back on Plan B pretty quickly ? pick herself up, dust herself off and start all over again ? but that's not because she's shallow or calculating or ungentle, just that she's known so many "promises" broken in the past. She's now used to it, and the fact that BGs are used to liars means we owe it to them to cut them some slack if some of them sometimes lie or exaggerate the truth. They've been coached well in wickedness by some of us. jack An interesting take on a BG's perspective Jack. Being straight with them keeps the situation(s) simple. I prefer and admire any TG that keeps the BS to a minimum- even the ones that have been around the "scene" for a while. Of course, there's a time and place for BS but I too keep it to a minimum. Big, potentially lifestyle changing promises have to be kept or be truthfully explained. If not, all that BS is dropped on the next farang guy. A small example... After hours at a SC bar. A group of yet unBF'ed BG's talking about life and all. As I was small talking to one of them, an angry BG interupts and declares to me, "we all tell you farangs lies - never believe us!" I said, "why are you telling me this?" BG 2 (sorry about numbering - never got the names) gestures towards Angry BG and says to me, "Do not listen to her. She caught her Farang boyfriend butterfly. He lied to her." I look at Angry BG and say "You are angry because YOU DO have feelings for him right?" No reply from Angry BG. She just sneers but continues to listen to me. I tell her we farangs are not all the same in "my listen to reason" voice and its just one screwed up guy looking for fun. His fun was not the same as yours, etc. then I shared a burned by a BG story to her and kept her undivided attention. She wasn't furious anymore but still smoldering. Afterwards, she got up and slowly walked away. The other BG's just watched with mixed reactions. Basically, Angry BG just wanted a farang to vent her anger and get some feedback. She was sincerely broken by this guy. I could see it on her face. I didn't mind having the talk with her if it helps the next guy. Hell, it could've been me on a different night. She was a stunner after taking a closer look! The purpose of my little story: Please, don't BS too hard guys! They are women with hearts and minds looking to pay the bills and find a better life. Says Fiery Jack: If not to the BGs, don't we owe it to ourselves to be honest? Rovineye's picture of that dressed-to-the-nines bird crying at the Chiang Mai table should serve as a lesson to us all. Okay, where's this picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardinalblue Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 maxal, I agree with minimizing the bs makes thing very simple. The problem with trying to keep it simple is that people have some type of life outside of the bar, the lucky ones anyway. Usually this life will be in direct conflict with the bar life. They are forced to lie unless the BGs will be hearing about gfs, wives, other bgs, etc. Is it not thai style to tell them what they want to hear? You are the only Bg that I am interested in and nope me single and never been married or had a gf before. I have been waiting my whole life just to meet you.. You take 1500 LT? Girls seem to handle that better even they know it is a pack of lies then here is a picture of wife, my mia noi, the kids and the family dog, Spot. It is almost a turn off to them if you tell them the truth if it concerns the above. When I do tell them the truth I have never been married and I don't have a current gf. Do you think they believe it? Cardinalblue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlequinbkk Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 [color:"red"] You remind me of a politican twisting and turning at every point and counterpoint till no one even knows what the point was to begin with. [/color] Sushiman, you remind me of a Thai who is overly obsessed with their 'face'. When someone points out a flaw in your argument, you react angrily, with contempt, insults and ridicule. Lighten up a bit; this is a board about having fun in Thailand :hubba: Harlequin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Says harlequinbkk: [color:"red"] Sushiman, you remind me of a Thai who is overly obsessed with their 'face'. When someone points out a flaw in your argument, you react angrily, with contempt, insults and ridicule. Lighten up a bit; this is a board about having fun in Thailand :hubba: Harlequin HBB, you described yourself to the letter, only I wouldn't go as far as insulting Thai people like you just did. Funny, that you once again stereotype an entire group of people. I seriously doubt if you ever encountered Thai people on the level that demonstrates the amount of face saving you mentioned because I doubt you have met many Thais. I think you are once again basing your comments off of "what you glean" from these boards with a dash of real life experiences. Also I don't think that you have ever been in an encounter with a Thai that viewed you as important enough to become "overly obsessed with their face" and that would include those dishonest prostitutes of yours. My advice to you is to admit when your wrong and stop weaseling in your arguments. Regards, Sushiman BTW- Here is a big hug for you just to show that I still like you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 harlequinbkk:what I am saying is that prostitution has a corrupting influence on the prostitute. This is just to generalizing. Prostitution per se doesn't corrupts. It depends on the environment. Following parameters will influcene the degree of corrupting: Is it legal or not? Choose the prostitutes the profession because they like sex or because they are poor? What sort of customers do they have? Are the prostitutes respected in society? What are the work conditions? etc... Of course in our modern society, prostitution is considered as "bad", i.e. it is forbidden, looked down, not respected, ... And this is corrupting! It can be compared with the drug trade: the trade with legal drugs (tobacco for example) isn't more corrupting than the trade with other commodities. But the trade with illegal drugs (coccain for example) is corrupting. So the point is: Not prostitution per se is corrupting but the conditions of it in our society! cardinalblueI don't even see where this issue can even be debated whether this is a corrupt environment or not I agree! But as I explained (and jjsushi tried to) it isn't prostitution per se which is corrupting. AF 16 Well if one pay for their services, contributing to their ills, maybe one should think about it? Why do you think that everyone who pays for their services does contribute to their ills? It is the mistake of our society, of the moral of most people (people like you?) that prostitution is corrupting. But there may be people who can see the ills and try to cure them. Of course if you believe that sex for money is a ill per se than you have to forbid it. That is what most societies do. But it is this moral who claims to help these girls which contributes a lot to the ill. But if you think that sex for money is neutral (neither good, neither bad) then you will begin to think about the conditions which made prostitution in our societies a ill. And then you will begin to search for real solutions. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Says naiv: This is just to generalizing. Prostitution per se doesn't corrupts. It depends on the environment. Following parameters will influcene the degree of corrupting: Is it legal or not? Choose the prostitutes the profession because they like sex or because they are poor? What sort of customers do they have? Are the prostitutes respected in society? What are the work conditions? etc... Of course in our modern society, prostitution is considered as "bad", i.e. it is forbidden, looked down, not respected, ... And this is corrupting! It can be compared with the drug trade: the trade with legal drugs (tobacco for example) isn't more corrupting than the trade with other commodities. But the trade with illegal drugs (coccain for example) is corrupting. So the point is: Not prostitution per se is corrupting but the conditions of it in our society! </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> cardinalblue I don't even see where this issue can even be debated whether this is a corrupt environment or not I agree! But as I explained (and jjsushi tried to) it isn't prostitution per se which is corrupting. Good way to explain the differences between profession and environment. Might I also add that character traits of the individual when making choices play a big part in this equation too. Maybe your arguments will help crystalize the point to those who have a hard time comprehending the differences because evidently my arguments did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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